[Debate] what pureline really means.

[NutZilla]

Hello fellow shrimpers,

This has been a thinking of me for quite sometime. What is actually the term PURELINE stands for? Who starts the term, and what the word pureline really define. Because its been quite a stir in this hobby; somebody can just call his/her shrimp as a pureline without any acknowledgement to the pureline term. Let me start by my understanding so far about the term pureline, please feel free to elaborate and correct me, as this thread is meant to be a debate to find a conclussion.

My understanding of pureline so far is, first of all of course there could not be any snow white or taiwan bee or any other gene, others than crs gene. And then, pureline is meant to define a certain breeders line; so the offspring of the crs must carry the particular lines uniqueness and quality, and the uniqueness must be stable for generations. Pureline is achieved by continously selective breeding, generation after generation, until the offspring is stable carrying the line's uniqueness, as well as quality, for at least 5 generation (that's what I've been told), for then you can call it your pureline. Selective breeding is done in order to keep wanted appearance and to discard unwanted appearance. And because of the continously selective breeding, the gene pool is getting more and more shallow (only specific wanted appearance), which in turn affect the breed rate and productivity of the crs. So it is common for a high grade pureline crs to breed only less than ten shrimplets at a time. When you cross 2 different prl the gene pool automaticly widen and the breed rate will be back to normal, and this is what some breeder did to push their productivity (that's what I've been told), but you will lost the pureline's stability and uniqueness. Except for japanese breeders, who really sticks to their idealism, to keep the quality instead of quantity. That's why japanese pureline is well known for their top quality. I always says that we cannot judge a crs as a pureline or not by its appearance, we must judge by breeding it and judge the generations of its offsprings, is it stable or not. I have this population of crs, which is a mixed pureline. The quality of the F1 is very very nice, top notch. But the quality is degrading by generations, and after it reach F4 it is already very different to F1. On the other hand, I have this population of Junichiro Nanba pureline. So far at F3 the quality is still exactly the same with the P1.

So, my question for now is, if I mix two different purelines, can I still call the offsprings a pureline? Because some people do, while I disagree. I would call it a mixed pureline. Some even put their name as a new pureline by mixing different purelines. Is it really that simple to start our own pureline? I don't think so..........

[imke_j]

Hi Nutzilla,

Interesting topic you bring up, let me answer what I think about it: The main problem is, that a general and binding definition for a ‘pure line’ yet misses.
When we look back, the term ‘pure line’ came first up in Japan, where breeders did line breeding of shrimp over generations and years. As they added no fresh genes to their tanks, they erased unwanted phenol- and genotypes by sending most percentage of their shrimplets to the cull tanks. As they did not sell their culls, but only shrimp that matched 100% their quality standards, buying shrimp from a certain breeder included automatically a very high and granted quality. The breeder guaranteed with his name for the quality of his shrimp.

Although international shrimp trade rose within the last years, still only a few people can buy shrimp directly in Japan or from a Japanese breeder. However, with every middle-man or distributor the risk raises that the original shrimp line has been mixed with some from another source. That is why some breeders now started to cycle pedigree certificates with every sold shrimp. (http://hakataebi.blog88.fc2.com/blog-entry-531.html) Why the term ‘pure’ once was trust giving for both seller and buyer, it has become a marketing word nowadays.

To come back to the definitions, let me conclude:

JPRL or PRL = Japanese Pure Red Line or Pure Red Line: Means that this shrimp have no golden genes from Snow White

PL = Pure Line: These shrimp have been breed over a couple of generations by one breeder; however, they can have golden genes as the term only refers to line breeding

IMO, you can speak from your own line as a pure or dedicated only, when you have breed them at least for 24 months or more. Mixing two explicite lines - no matter if pure or not - will always make you lose the original name.

Last but not least: I have not seen one reputable Japanese breeder shipping his shrimp with full import/export papers to another country, as the prices in Japan itself are the best. Shrimp that left the country perhaps have been picked up by the buyers and brought somehow to the destination country. As not all costumers are strict, or refuse some extra payment, the most likely travel box for shrimp is a private suitcase, unfortunately.

[NutZilla]

Thanks for sharing imke. Its nice to hear about the pedigree certificate. Because buying crs from market could be very frustating. Just imagine, I've been offered by some local breeders top japanese pureline for just 30USD, which is impossible.

[NutZilla]

Let me elaborate a little more. For shrimp hobbyst (not seller) like me, this condition is very frustating. First of all, I don't have any access to japanese or taiwan breeder for guaranteed quality pureline crs. So what I can do is to buy crs from local breeders; sometimes I was satisfied, some other times I was greatly dissapointed by the quality. And when I finally got a quality crs pureline, it took too much effort explaining about the premium price I've paid for the pureline to other hobbyst, who purchase cheaper nice but mixed pureline. It would be a perfect world if we have a system to guarantee quality and pedigree, so the value of one's collection is not biased by other spin off product that looked similar.

[Navanod]

This topic has been resurfacing so often that I'm quite puzzled why none of the industry leaders or senior hobbyists had tried to do anything about it.

I had started a few threads on a Singapore forum to try to address both the lack of grading system on quality of such shrimps as well as the info a seller should provide when attempting to market a shrimp as pureline.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to link to another forum though?

Either way, there's alot of nitty gritty to sort out and resistance from change from some hobbyists. Don't expect anything to be sorted out soon

[GDP]

Im going to start my own pureline .

[NutZilla]

This topic has been resurfacing so often that I'm quite puzzled why none of the industry leaders or senior hobbyists had tried to do anything about it.

I had started a few threads on a Singapore forum to try to address both the lack of grading system on quality of such shrimps as well as the info a seller should provide when attempting to market a shrimp as pureline.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to link to another forum though?

Either way, there's alot of nitty gritty to sort out and resistance from change from some hobbyists. Don't expect anything to be sorted out soon

would you mind sharing those threads that you mentioned? maybe via pm is more appropriate. thanks.

[Dincho]

This is a good topic and one i have spoken about in length lately. The term PRL (pure red line) did not originate from Japan, according to a few Japanese breeders it was first 'dreamt' up in Vietnam, spreading across Asia.

I have spoken to a few very well respected Japanese breeders lately about this and not one of them can guarantee that NO offspring would be golden/snow white, all they can say is that their shrimp are not bred with golden shrimp. Breeders like Beni Bachi, Ebi Ten and Nishiki Ebi used to sell there snow white offspring for very little money, now because the snow white is being bred out of the CRS they are becoming harder to find and the price has risen. Snow white popularity is growing in Japan currently, not because of quality but because or rarity, because of this the top quality snow white shrimp are selling for silly money.

I think that certificates are a good idea, they let you know that the shrimp has come from the breeder advertised. But not all Japanese breeders offer certificates for all their shrimp, most only offer certificates for the higher grade shrimp, $2500 and higher. The certificate only certifies it was bred by the said breeder, not to certify its 'pure line'.

[swoosh]

Excellent topic here. Don't let it die!
More expert opinions are welcomed!

[cleeon]

wow, I will read and watch this discussion.

1 question is, based from natural law on this earth, doing lineBreeding from time to time, sometime, We will get more weak and easy/ low resistant level with disease, is that true ?