*LAKE MATANO SALT MIX AT LAST*

[willw]

Hi all,

a very big announcement today; this is the recipe to replicate Lake Matano water to keep Cardinal Shrimp. Please discuss all your thoughts about it! I would really like to know how you think the different chemicals and compounds relate to the shrimps' biology.

The credit for this goes to Sean Crowe, the man who wrote a paper all about the biogeochemistry of Lake Matano.

So, here we go:

LAKE MATANO SURFACE WATERS RECIPE (MAJOR SALT SOLUTION)

g salt per 1 liter RO / Distilled Water

MgO*1 0.0264g
MgSO4•7H2O 0.0037g
CaCO3 0.0281g
CaCl2•2H2O 0.0015g
Na2SO4 0.0025g
KCl 0.0003g

*May be easier to use equimolar mass of MgCO3


Adjust to desired pH with CO2 gas- surface water pH is 8.1-8.2, chemocline is ~7.5, deepwater is ~6.9 to 7.0. MgO will remain largely insoluble until the pH is adjusted. Can take 48 for 72 hrs to adjust the pH due to the kinetics of MgO dissolution.

1Depending on the chemical supplier some (usually small) fraction of the MgO will not dissolve

Can be prepared in a 10 fold concentrated stock

Filter sterilize to avoid precipitation during autoclaving

Salts can be varied to more accurately represent deeper water chemistry.

Sulfate concentration is nearly twice that of the surface water.


Please contribute by providing as much as you know or suspect for the sake of research! :D

[Lexinverts]

Hi all,

a very big announcement today; this is the recipe to replicate Lake Matano water to keep Cardinal Shrimp. Please discuss all your thoughts about it! I would really like to know how you think the different chemicals and compounds relate to the shrimps' biology.

The credit for this goes to Sean Crowe, the man who wrote a paper all about the biogeochemistry of Lake Matano.

So, here we go:

LAKE MATANO SURFACE WATERS RECIPE (MAJOR SALT SOLUTION)

g salt per 1 liter RO / Distilled Water

MgO*1 0.0264g
MgSO4•7H2O 0.0037g
CaCO3 0.0281g
CaCl2•2H2O 0.0015g
Na2SO4 0.0025g
KCl 0.0003g

*May be easier to use equimolar mass of MgCO3


Adjust to desired pH with CO2 gas- surface water pH is 8.1-8.2, chemocline is ~7.5, deepwater is ~6.9 to 7.0. MgO will remain largely insoluble until the pH is adjusted. Can take 48 for 72 hrs to adjust the pH due to the kinetics of MgO dissolution.

1Depending on the chemical supplier some (usually small) fraction of the MgO will not dissolve

Can be prepared in a 10 fold concentrated stock

Filter sterilize to avoid precipitation during autoclaving

Salts can be varied to more accurately represent deeper water chemistry.

Sulfate concentration is nearly twice that of the surface water.


Please contribute by providing as much as you know or suspect for the sake of research! :D

Very interesting!

May I assume that you have had success breeding Cardinal shrimp using this exact recipe for water preparation?

Did you breed your shrimp in the tank pictured in your other thread? Bare bottom--no substrate?

Could you also please share with us what you fed your shrimp?

Thank you!

[willw]

Hello there, I haven't kept shrimp in it yet - I've been waiting for the tank to mature and the right opportunity to get some good specimens; but I will be soon! I hope that this will enable me to breed them with more ease.

Not so sure what exactly it is I will feed them yet. Definitely naturally growing bio-film in the tank and I believe there has been success with the brand Ocean Nutrition.

[plisboa]

Correct me if I'm wrong but this recepie should only be tested in wild cought shrimps, right???
I ask because my Cardinal are doing so well that I don't even consider changing anything at all...

And, what bennefits can we expect from the use of this recepie?

Thanks and good luck!

[willw]

Hi Plisboa,

I think this recipe can be tested on both wild caught and captive bred shrimp - I can't see any reason why the recipe should only be restricted to wild caught specimens.

You are probably lucky with your local water parameters - many people don't have the correct water from tap to keep and breed these shrimp.

What can the recipe do for you? Simple answer: make breeding Caridina dennerli much easier; that's the hope anyway.

I went to a seminar held by Chris Lukhaup yesterday and he said that a salt mix recipe has been developed by the Logemännern brothers in Hamburg. He said beforehand only a few people could breed the shrimp, now with this new salt mix, he knows of 50-60 people who can breed them.

[imke_j]

MgO*1 0.0264g
MgSO4•7H2O 0.0037g
CaCO3 0.0281g
CaCl2•2H2O 0.0015g
Na2SO4 0.0025g
KCl 0.0003g

Hi Will, thanks for posting this! Can you please explain which '•' means?

Besides, the Crowe study from 2008: "The biogeochemistry of tropical lakes: A case study from Lake Matano, Indonesia" has been funded by the Nickel mining industry, deeply interested in Sulawesi:

"We thank the International Nickel Company (INCO) Canada and PT INCO Tbk. for their financial and logistical support of both field and laboratory work. Support for Sean A. Crowe was partly provided by a Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council (NSERC) Industrial Partnership Scholarship sponsored by INCO Canada."

Do you think the results and conclusions follow scientific rules?

[Lexinverts]

Besides, the Crowe study from 2008: "The biogeochemistry of tropical lakes: A case study from Lake Matano, Indonesia" has been funded by the Nickel mining industry, deeply interested in Sulawesi:

"We thank the International Nickel Company (INCO) Canada and PT INCO Tbk. for their financial and logistical support of both field and laboratory work. Support for Sean A. Crowe was partly provided by a Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council (NSERC) Industrial Partnership Scholarship sponsored by INCO Canada."

Do you think the results and conclusions follow scientific rules?

Imke, this study was published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal (Limnology and Oceanography), published by the American Society of Limnology and Oceanography.
This is a respected scientific society with 4000 members and is the largest limnographic/oceanographic scientific society in the world.

When a paper is published in a peer-reviewed journal, such as this one, it is reviewed by 3 experts in the field of limnology/oceanography. The job of the reviewers is to determine whether the study is reasonable and that the conclusions are well-founded. The journal editor, also an expert scientist, then reviews the recommendations of the reviewers, and makes a determination about whether the paper should be published.

I see no reason to doubt the conclusions of the paper just because they received some funding from industry. It very common for industry to fund basic science, and it is up to the reviewers and the journal editor to determine wheter any conflicts of interest exist. Papers written simply to advance the business interests of funding sources, and not based on good science, would almost always be rejected by reviewers and editors.

[willw]

imke_j

That '•' shows that the compound is a hydrate.
E.g. MgSO4•7H2O means that for every one mole of anhydrous (without water) MgSO4, there are seven moles of H2O attached. Any hydrated compound will have that dot, and those waters attached will change the molar mass.

Lexinverts is right about the paper being peer-reviewed but you raise and interesting question for me to include in my investigation :D Also, I contacted Sean and he kindly gave me his recipe that he'd been working on, himself.

[imke_j]

Thanks to you both for answering my questions. I know I am a skeptic witch sometimes ;)

[willw]

you're not a witch imke_j - just a moderator ;)

So, who's up for trying it out? I'm guessing I'll be the first guinea pig seeing as I'm acquiring a specimen in the next few weeks. I have a lot of hope after the promising readings I got after adding the salt mix.

pH: 7.9
GH: 2°
KH: 2°
Electrical Conductivity: 166 μS/cm
TDS: 179 ppm

[madlan]

Hi Will,

Were you the young guy at the front Chris kept asking questions too? :)
I was there for both talks, hope he comes back to the UK again!

I have 6 Cardinals in a 25l setup, currently using RO over coral gravel - They are alive and well but not breeding so I'm tempted to try this mix.
My chemistry skills are lacking these days... Could you tell me what quantites you mixed up and where did you get the salts\minerals?

Thanks!

[Summit MicroFarm]

willw,
WOW! All I can say is thank you! This is the type of info I long for in our hobby/industry. Too often the details are overlooked or even curtailed in the sake of "business concerns". It is refreshing to not only have someone willing to share these type of tips, but to do so in a clear and concise manner. Now I must go back to my university chemistry days to refresh my O Chem, but this type of info is invaluable! At the very least it, as you stated, begins our path of experimentation to finally put this topic of suitable/ideal chemistry to rest. At the risk of sounding corny, I say "Good Show!" Well done. I look forwad to further details and results of this thread. I have bred Cardinals several times and had problems with my colony crashing after seemingly successful breeding events. I ALWAYS suspected a water chemistry issue from the chemistry side (ie minerals etc) rather than the bio side (ie ammonia, nitrate, nitrite) side of things. Thank you again.:wideeyed:

:alien:

[willw]

@madlan that certainly was me! ;) I'm annoyed I missed his Sulawesi talk! It would be great if he comes back to the UK, I'm sure he will - the lady at the ticket office said Aquatics Live was doing incredibly well for a new show.

I got the salts and minerals from my school laboratories (all molecules in the forms stated ready for use unbelievably!). You can get all of them off eBay but expect to pay at least £20 (24 euro) for all the ingredients.

One day I might make a video on how to make the mix.

But here's what I did (a quote I sent to Sean Crowe to confirm what I'd done in the laboratory - he said it sounded like the method was on the right track):

"All ingredient values on the list were multiplied by 500 and added to 500ml of distilled water which would be enough to treat 500L of aquarium water (1000 times more concentrated). I noticed that after doing this, when the 'milky' stock was left to settle for 5 minutes, a large amount of the compounds would sink to the bottom - I'm guessing it's because the water had become saturated due to the high concentration.

When I got back home with the stock, I stirred it up and took 1ml in a pipette which I then administered to 1L of RO water - hoping that the end result would be a solution diluted 1000 times (aka a sample of synthetic Matano water should be achieved)."

@Summit MicroFarm Thank you for your kind words! I'm so glad to see yet another member who wants to crack down on the scientific side of things :D When talking to Chris Lukhaup, he told me he genuinely believed - as you do - that the key to success in a breeding colony was in the water chemistry and the key to that was the salt mix.

[willw]

Hi guys,

had a couple of requests about making the salt mix and had a proposition to make:

If I can get five people who want to buy some pre-made salt mix, I'll look into how much each sachet will cost including P&P and see if they're still interested in getting some. I'm not interested in profit, you'll get a good quantity at cost price, this will give me the opportunity to make a guide video on how to create the salt mix.

I know that guppies and madlan would be interested, so, the other three potential takers please let me know!

[Lexinverts]

Hi guys,

had a couple of requests about making the salt mix and had a proposition to make:

If I can get five people who want to buy some pre-made salt mix, I'll look into how much each sachet will cost including P&P and see if they're still interested in getting some. I'm not interested in profit, you'll get a good quantity at cost price, this will give me the opportunity to make a guide video on how to create the salt mix.

I know that guppies and madlan would be interested, so, the other three potential takers please let me know!

I'm interested. I have some livestock that I could use to test it.

[madlan]

Yes please Will :)

[zvirus]

Hi,

Great Job done! The only problem is a liquid solution of MgO. MgO solubility in water > 0.086 g/l (0.86g in 10l of water). Id say it wont work that way.

Just made 10l of my own mix which includes 0.9g MgO and water gets very milky, just wonder how long will that state last. Will let You know. So far pH is ~8.0

[willw]

Good to see we have four people already interested in having some mix premade for them - I'm sure a fifth will come along pretty soon :)

On the list of interest is: guppies, madlan, lexinverts, Summit MicroFarm

I'll look into ingredients now and calculate the costs ;)

@zvirus - Hi Thomas, you have a good point about magnesium oxide's poor solubility in water. My solution was milky several months ago and still is; when the 'solution' is left to settle, a load of powder sinks to the bottom. So when I dose the RO water, I shake the bottle holding the salt mix like mad to evenly distribute the salts and then very quickly dose the RO water (not such a convincing method but it works).
Good to hear your mix is at pH 8 though, something must be working!

[zvirus]

Good to see we have four people already interested in having some mix premade for them - I'm sure a fifth will come along pretty soon :)

On the list of interest is: guppies, madlan, lexinverts, Summit MicroFarm

I'll look into ingredients now and calculate the costs ;)

@zvirus - Hi Thomas, you have a good point about magnesium oxide's poor solubility in water. My solution was milky several months ago and still is; when the 'solution' is left to settle, a load of powder sinks to the bottom. So when I dose the RO water, I shake the bottle holding the salt mix like mad to evenly distribute the salts and then very quickly dose the RO water (not such a convincing method but it works).
Good to hear your mix is at pH 8 though, something must be working!

To be precise I also used NaHCO3 same times which gives me kH ~3, so pH must go over 7 anyway. We have to wait for conclusions until tomorrow.
When use K2CO3 as a buffer first day ph goes up to 9(!) next day ph is.. 6.6 I`m not a chemist so cant tell you what is happening that solution goes acidic after 24h. Probably the buffer is too weak.

I guess the key is in carbonate hardness when low it has very low ability to keep stable (high) pH...

[Lexinverts]

you're not a witch imke_j - just a moderator ;)

So, who's up for trying it out? I'm guessing I'll be the first guinea pig seeing as I'm acquiring a specimen in the next few weeks. I have a lot of hope after the promising readings I got after adding the salt mix.

pH: 7.9
GH: 2°
KH: 2°
Electrical Conductivity: 166 μS/cm
TDS: 179 ppm

Hi Will,

My Sulawesi tanks have a KH of 6 and a GH of 7. I get this with RO water, aragonite sand, and heavy aeration. Aren't your KH and GH too low for these shrimp? I think that they would have molting problems with a GH of 2.

Also, the reason I asked you what you would be feeding your shrimp is because they will get some minerals from their food as well. It may not be necessary to replicate the minerals in the Matano water exactly, if they get some of these from Hikari Shrimp Cuisine, for example. The best test of your salt mix would be with shrimp that are given a completely natural diet, but this may not be possible.

[willw]

@ Lexinverts - what a fantastic point about the diet, this is another thing I'll look into for my investigation. All values (except from TDS) are too low - the solution? Add more salt mix.
My best guess for the TDS being slightly higher than that of Lake Matano (100-150ppm [varies from different sources!]) is that RO water isn't completely pure. Stupidly, I didn't measure the RO water values before I dosed it with the salt mix but I'd think the RO water could well have had a TDS value of 50-70ppm.

Even if the TDS is too high, I've heard that people have breed cardinal shrimp with respectively very high values. A member on this forum, Anubia, states their cardinals are breeding fine at 280ppm !:O

Right then, I've looked into the ingredients and I've found the following:

One salt pack which can treat 2000L of water (should last you long enough...) will cost £6 / $9.30/ €6.20. The sachet should weigh about 100-150g so P&P is going to be cheap.

[zvirus]

Hi Will,

My Sulawesi tanks have a KH of 6 and a GH of 7. I get this with RO water, aragonite sand, and heavy aeration. Aren't your KH and GH too low for these shrimp? I think that they would have molting problems with a GH of 2.

Also, the reason I asked you what you would be feeding your shrimp is because they will get some minerals from their food as well. It may not be necessary to replicate the minerals in the Matano water exactly, if they get some of these from Hikari Shrimp Cuisine, for example. The best test of your salt mix would be with shrimp that are given a completely natural diet, but this may not be possible.

Hi,

Well, I keep (and breed sometimes) Dennerli since May 2011. And never seen them eating: Spinach, Ebi Dama, and many other kind of food even at night when used a torch.

Next morning food has been always untouched! As said NEVER seen them grazing on that kind of food.
I do not know how do they obtain calcium but I`m sure not from water which is a myth for me.

BTW Ive done some calculations. Anyone can explain this?:

Magnesium hydroxide forms in the presence of water (MgO + H2O -> Mg(OH)2)

Mg(OH)2 - molar mass=58.3 g/mol

So Mg is 41.3% in this compound right.

When You add 0.0264g into water you will get ~10.8ppm Mg which is gH 2.48
When You add other stuff it looks like total hardness should reach ~gH 5 (German degrees)

Am I right?

[Lexinverts]

Hi,

Well, I keep (and breed sometimes) Dennerli since May 2011. And never seen them eating: Spinach, Ebi Dama, and many other kind of food even at night when used a torch.


My Cardinals and White Orchids will accept Hikari Shrimp Cuisine. White Orchids seem to eat almost anything with gusto, while the Cardinals are very picky, however, my Cardinals will take this Hikari food.

[Lexinverts]

One salt pack which can treat 2000L of water (should last you long enough...) will cost £6 / $9.30/ €6.20. The sachet should weigh about 100-150g so P&P is going to be cheap.

That sounds great!

[ZID ZULANDER]

My Cardinals are breeding in high TDS. I have not checked it recently but if I had to guess its 300 or more. These are F1 from wild stock that I got. I dont see them eating the food that I put into the tank either. The Tylos that are in there do. I do put in Chi Ebi Shirakura baby shrimp food in the tank about two times a week. Tank doesnt look that great but I dont want to monkey with it in fear that they will stop doing there thing ( breeding ).

[willw]

Hi Thomas,

In regard to your calculations; after working through it myself, I agree that all the Maths is correct but there are a couple things I'm unsure about.

1. Like you said, even if MgO powder with a purity of 100% is added (rarely the case), 100% of the MgO doesn't dissolve so it won't actually be 41.3% of the 0.0264g MgO dosed and therefore the ppm of magnesium will be lower.

2. How did you get the conversion factor for ppm to GH for Magnesium? Is it the same as it for calcium?

Cheers! I've probably overlooked something stupidly :P

[zvirus]

Hi Thomas,

In regard to your calculations; after working through it myself, I agree that all the Maths is correct but there are a couple things I'm unsure about.

1. Like you said, even if MgO powder with a purity of 100% is added (rarely the case), 100% of the MgO doesn't dissolve so it won't actually be 41.3% of the 0.0264g MgO dosed and therefore the ppm of magnesium will be lower.

2. How did you get the conversion factor for ppm to GH for Magnesium? Is it the same as it for calcium?

Cheers! I've probably overlooked something stupidly :P

Maybe I`m just fussy :)
Here is my favourite web site which is calculating hardness for me:
http://www.lenntech.com/ro/water-hardness.htm

Just let You know i diluted my first bucket of water 1:3 and pH is still very high, have no proper test but its around pH9.0... It looks like MgO is very alkaline compound so overdosing is not really recommended I guess.

[limsheng]

Hi, count me in! I would greatly appreciate if can receive the salt mix before starting to venture into Sulawesi shrimps.

[willw]

@limsheng - great! now got a fifth person on the list. Just to let everyone know, I've ordered the ingredients and should be able to make the mix on Wednesday ;) I'll be making an instructional video too.

[oryzias]

How similar would the water conditions resulting from this remin product be to Lake Poso water? Would it be a suitable substitute?

[willw]

Hi Oryzias,

According to one set of results posted by Carsten Logemann (one of the leading guys in Sulawesi shrimp, Hamburg)

Lake Poso reads as:
Temp 27.7 °C
PH 8.1
GH 5
KH 4
Electric conductivity 109 µs

Whereas Lake Matano reads as:
Temp 28.7 °C
PH 8.5
GH 7
KH 5
Electric conductivity 175 µs

All the water parameters in Matano are higher than those from Poso. So if you used a slightly lower amount of salt mix to RO water, then you could attain very similar values.

So my best guess is, considering people are currently replicating Poso water by running RO water over coral chips, you could suitably use this salt mix to replicate lake poso water.

[willw]

Oryzias, I forgot to mention I'm in Berkshire. What species do / are intending to keep and where do you get them from?

I'm going down to Aquajardin, Southampton next week to get a cardinal shrimp (yes, one, he is going to be the first shrimp this mix has ever been used on [unless some uncanny individual has obtained this recipe I posted and beat me to the post!]).

[oryzias]

Hi willw, if you need any more subscribers to your remin creation, please include me.
Regards,
Phill.

[willw]

Hi Phil, I'll put you down on the interested list ;)

[oryzias]

Oryzias, I forgot to mention I'm in Berkshire. What species do / are intending to keep and where do you get them from?
I have a large colony of orange Tylomelania that have been in a rather unsuitable soft substrate, wood and java moss, 140 litre environment for a couple of years. My intention was to use an identical sized tank that at present houses a small group of P. altum (which can be relocated) to give the Tylos a better hard substrate environment, and add suitable shrimp such as caerulea, sarasinorum etc when the snails have been in there a while and established the biofilm. I don't know as yet, where I am going to obtain the shrimp, I would guess that it is now too cold to get them posted from mainland Europe.
regards,
Phill.

[Kwisatz]

Hi willw,
if you need more people trying this out, please include me too! I'm cycling my tank(i'm on the second week) looking forward for poso speciment.
Thank you

[Nelly]

Hi every body
Thank you willw for all your information about lake matano water parameters
I tried several times to breed cardinal shrimps and they always died after few weeks
I was about to try again with a bigger tank (80l) to obtain mere easily satble water parameter
What a read on French forums are frequently soil with coral sand T 28°C and few tylos

If you need someone else to try your salt I'm in

Nelly

[willw]

Hi Kwisatz and Nelly, I'll put you down on the 'interested list'.

Quick update for all: I've got all the salts and equipment, I just need to carry out the mixing and dividing procedures in the lab (it'll have to be done by Friday because our school closes for the christmas holidays - yay!). There was a delay because when I ordered the calcium carbonate, it was cheap low purity stuff so the good news is I got some laboratory grade stuff but the bad news is the sachets will cost a tiny bit more.

http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/9137/p1100558.jpg (http://img806.imageshack.us/i/p1100558.jpg/)

[Nelly]

hi
just a question is your mix going to me stable when heated to 28 - 29 °C ?
and what about extras ingredients like food, few plants ( anubia or java mooss ) , or even stone used for decoration ,?

are all this staff have an influence on the water parametres?

[willw]

@ Nelly: of course the mix will be stable at those temperatures, it's designed to synthesise Matano water. A sufficient supply of algae growing in the tank is enough for dennerli's dietary requirements - I'd avoid commercial foods. I guess a few plants won't hurt (more organic matter will probably increase the conductivity and TDS, then again plants do take up minerals and nitrates so I'm not sure what the net change would be) - don't supply them with CO2 though, that'll lower your pH. Make sure the rock you add is inert. The way to tell if the rock is suitable is to add a few drops of vinegar to it; if it fizzes the DO NOT put it in the tank otherwise it will increase the water's hardness.

[Nelly]

ok it was just the question from a non chemist person...like me ^^^.

netherless I am not sure I got it right
Is your advise not to feed them at all ?
You only count on normal algae growing in the tank ?

[willw]

@ Nelly: oh gawd - what I wrote in response to you looks like it's been written by a grumpy old man! :D sorry about that :P

My advice is: if you can get them to eat commercial food, great! It should have lots of important nutrients in it! *give them ocean nutrition wafers* Let them eat the algae in the tank too. Make sure there's lots of algae in the tank though! ;) You need a lot of algae in the tank. If you can't feed them commercial foods then the rocks and other surfaces needs to be covered in algae - otherwise they'll starve to death.

[willw]

OK guys, I've managed to make 7 sachets of the salt mix. I'll be be contacting those interested soon!

[yu390705]

Will,

Thanks a billion for this amazing information!
Many years we've misled by the shrimp exporter that we thought the correct water parameter is high GH and TDS
But the truth is that the high-TDS/GH treatment is to prevent molting so that the shrimp casualty during transportation will be minimized, but not the survivability!
That also explains why the rookies encounter molting problem and the shrimplets never grow up then disappear.

Here is my calculation of the ion density:
Mg2+: 24/40*26.4 + 24/246*3.7 = 16.21mg
Ca2+: 40/100*28.1 + 40/146*1.5 = 11.66mg
Na+: 46/142*2.5 = 0.8mg
K+: 39/74*0.3 = 0.16mg
SO4-: 96/246*3.7 + 96/142*2.5 = 3.18mg
Cl-: 70/146*1.5 + 35/74*0.3 = 0.87mg

Per general water parameter I found the most different thing is that the Mg/Ca ratio is more than 1, while general fresh water is 1/2 to 1/7.
This ratio is more similar to ocean, not general river or lake.
I wonder this difference is required for Caridina spinata, caekewalk aand red line bee, those most difficult to raise and multiply breeds.

Also the sulfate and chloride is so low (the tap water contains about 10 to 100 times quantity, I think, as my observation of tap water in Taiwan)
That also explains why the pH is so high with such low KH/GH
I wonder it is a key point, too.

[willw]

@ yu390705 - cheers! what a great thought about the exporters keeping the shrimp from moulting during transit to avoid fatalities :)

Whilst speaking on the phone to a shrimp fanatic at my LFS, I was told that Matano's high pH and low hardness was to do with the fact that Lake Matano is the remains of a volcano. I'm guessing that volcanic rock gives the water these qualities.

By the way, I have no idea what factors in the water parameters affect the shrimps shell / moulting: can you tell us anything you know about it? :D

[yu390705]

Will,

It is not only a thought, it is a "rumor"... I know several agencies so I can get some information of the shrimp treatment before exporting and breeding.
Also the breeding does not happen in "farm" or "green house", it is a small rear area in Lake Matano and Poso.
So they grow up in Lake, not tank, in some aspect they're still wild shrimps, although Indonesia breeders announce they're artificial rearing...

Generally speaking, hardness is the factor for new shell settle down. harder water makes shrimp recovers faster after molting
But high hardness water makes shrimp hard to drop their old molt. The molting activation is controlled by cholesterol and shrimp growth status.

easy reading:
soft water: easy to molt, hard to recover, shrimp die old easily
hard water: easy to recover, hard for molting, shrimp may die during molting
cholesterol: helping growing new shell and help molting. If you want to keep shrimp in high GH condition you may need to consider this nutrition.

But physiology of shrimp is no so simple, it is the fundamental part, we can start here at first :)

[imke_j]

If you are interested in Will's offer, use PM for any further informtion exchange. If you cannot PM, you must have more posts (20 or above), as you have newbie status. From now on, please stick to the topic, as offtopic will be deleted.

[willw]

Hi guys,

I can't stand all this waiting to get some cardinal shrimp to further test out the salt mix. I was wondering if anyone out there who I sent samples to could post some feedback up here (if there's any).

Cheers for now!

[Summit MicroFarm]

willw,
SO funny and ironic you posted this morning. My new batch of Sulawesi cardinals will be delivered in a few hours. They will go into my existing Sulawesi tank. I will have more to report in the new future. Thank you again Will!
:alien:

[Radik]

Hi willw, what is holding you from getting them? Cold weather? By the way is this suppose to be similar mix as salty shrimp? You are in London right? I plan to get some mid June from Germany most likely 1 day trip trip London-Germany or next day delivery if weather allows.

[willw]

Hi Radik,

My Dad's an airline pilot and I'm waiting for him to get a stop at Hamburg - that's what's been causing the wait! I sent the recipe to one of the people who 'made' the Salty Mix (Carsten Logemann) and this is what he had to say:

"Dear Will,
i am not spezialized in chemic, we had company who help us..... your salt seems to be working, but in the lakes are not much chloride and sulfate... Water from lake Matano is not much different than from lake Towuti, so you can use our Sulawesi Mineral 8,5 wich makes Towuti water. But we have some breeders of Caridina dennerli in germany who have much success with our Sulawesi Mineral 7,5..... "

I'm in Berkshire which is close to London ;) Good luck with the day trip, it WILL be exhausting!

[Radik]

Lucky you I will just get plane there and back same day, no car. I had some shrimp already transferred this way from Hanover and all went smooth.

Thanks for reply on salt mix, I will try salty shrimp first. Cheers

[Summit MicroFarm]

will,
So I have been testing your salt mix. Here is what I have discovered.
As you and I have previously discussed, your mix does not bring TDS up as high as recommended for cardinals, despite what the lakes natural TDS level. More importantly I cannot get your mix to dissolve completely at all. I followed your directions to the letter but it continually precipitates out to the bottom. That being said, I was able to combine your mix in conjunction with Salty Mix and have found a very successful water conditioner. So I took my RO/DI, added the recommended amount of the "will mix", and then added Salty mix to bring the TDS up to where I thought it should be. Then I left the solution sit for at least a day, or two. The "will mix" did precipitate out again, but the water tested out great. I just vigorously stirred the solution and added it while the salts where in suspension. The cardinals seem to love it and are berrying naturally. I do not think I will use your mix for every change, but maybe once a month. Thanks again!
:alien:

[yu390705]

I can tell you all that no need to test this method anymore.

Sulawesi water condition(Malili lake system): pH 8.2, GH 4-6, KH 4, temperature 28C
then I've tried several times then there's no result.
moreover, many breeders multiply them with only tap water.
I also tried the salt myself, no help at all.

think other side, why tiger bee from mainland china, new caridina from Taiwan, and many bee shrimps from India, Vienna, are easy too keep?
Why Sulawesi shrimp are so hard?
Sulawesi lake is not like river ecosystem, the water parameter varies a lot during dry/rain season
so focus on water parameter is a correct way?

I can say No.
and I observe that 95% of my 1000+ pieces of dead shrimps are dead by infection (fast corruption, abnormal red/white meat/organs)
these shrimps come from isolated island and lake, no other bacteria/fungus/virus challenge during their evolution.
Contrastive to sulawesi shrimps, The popular caridina from tropical countries are river shrimps and been breed artificially for decades. They are strong enough to survive with various micro-be around the world
So they are vulnerable to total new environment. special conditions makes these shrimps can be mass-produced only on Sulawesi.
If you're lucky that your environment (tap water, dust, air, soil...etc) has no harmful micro-be, then you can happily raise them (many case of successful caridina dennerli)
If not, then you can directly give up because there's no way to know what are dreadful and how to prevent them.
Biological analysis requires much more background knowledge and equipment to do so.

[willw]

Sean,

thank you very much for the detailed feedback on the recipe; I am, however, beginning to have my doubts about it :/ It seems like this mix is more hassle than it's worth, especially with the successful new salty mix out there. Your combo of both mixes means that it could possibly be the salty mix that lead to the successful outcome. I'm gonna say that this recipe looks as if it's hit and miss - and that Salty Mix is probably the safest thing to go for right now.

yu390705 - If I read what you say correctly, we should be more concerned about the microbes in our tanks than what our specific water parameters are? Do you think it's possible that inaccurate water parameters can lead to stressed shrimps with weakened immune systems and then die as a result of infection?

[Summit MicroFarm]

I can tell you all that no need to test this method anymore.

Sulawesi water condition(Malili lake system): pH 8.2, GH 4-6, KH 4, temperature 28C
then I've tried several times then there's no result.
moreover, many breeders multiply them with only tap water.
I also tried the salt myself, no help at all.

think other side, why tiger bee from mainland china, new caridina from Taiwan, and many bee shrimps from India, Vienna, are easy too keep?
Why Sulawesi shrimp are so hard?
Sulawesi lake is not like river ecosystem, the water parameter varies a lot during dry/rain season
so focus on water parameter is a correct way?

I can say No.
and I observe that 95% of my 1000+ pieces of dead shrimps are dead by infection (fast corruption, abnormal red/white meat/organs)
these shrimps come from isolated island and lake, no other bacteria/fungus/virus challenge during their evolution.
Contrastive to sulawesi shrimps, The popular caridina from tropical countries are river shrimps and been breed artificially for decades. They are strong enough to survive with various micro-be around the world
So they are vulnerable to total new environment. special conditions makes these shrimps can be mass-produced only on Sulawesi.
If you're lucky that your environment (tap water, dust, air, soil...etc) has no harmful micro-be, then you can happily raise them (many case of successful caridina dennerli)
If not, then you can directly give up because there's no way to know what are dreadful and how to prevent them.
Biological analysis requires much more background knowledge and equipment to do so.

yu,
Here is my experience in regards to what you detailed.
I am not sure the susceptibility of the cardinals is the real issue. I have found through my, and my partners experience, that since the cardinals are kept/bred in large enclosures in the lakes themselves that the initial survivability of imported cardinals tends to lie with whether the "batch" is "clean" or not. We have imported cardinals and other Sulawesi shrimps that were very hardy and strong. These survived with minimal die off (there is always an intitial die off with shipping stress) and the colonies grew rapidly, breeding and surviving exceptionally well. At other times the stock seems to be very weak and tend to die regularly each week. This is why so many people in the know want to only purchase domestic bred cardinals, and also why imported cardinals are dirt cheap while domestic bred cardinals go for far higher prices. It seems as though once you get through the initial die off with a "clean" batch and establish a successful colony that they are very strong.
Just MHO and experiences
:alien:

[yu390705]

Sean,

thank you very much for the detailed feedback on the recipe; I am, however, beginning to have my doubts about it :/ It seems like this mix is more hassle than it's worth, especially with the successful new salty mix out there. Your combo of both mixes means that it could possibly be the salty mix that lead to the successful outcome. I'm gonna say that this recipe looks as if it's hit and miss - and that Salty Mix is probably the safest thing to go for right now.

yu390705 - If I read what you say correctly, we should be more concerned about the microbes in our tanks than what our specific water parameters are? Do you think it's possible that inaccurate water parameters can lead to stressed shrimps with weakened immune systems and then die as a result of infection?

Will,

yes. Of course the water parameter should be in a safe range, but we need not to adjust it to "just fit as lab level"
my partner keep them with pH range 7.5-8.5, KH 0-8, GH 4-12.
My water parameter is absolutely fit but they die with infection symptom
So I think the key point is microbes, but it is so hard to prevent, unless you know how to do sterilization and medicine treatment....