Need help with ID...what type of bee??

[milalic]

Another one needed...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a297/milalic/shrimps/unknow_a1.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a297/milalic/shrimps/unknow_a2.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a297/milalic/shrimps/unknow_a3.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a297/milalic/shrimps/unknow_a4.jpg

Thanks
Pedro

[milalic]

Similra to #2 in here:

http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/showthread.php?t=819


They all came together in a shipment of bumble bee...

[gr81]

Should be Bee shrimp

[milalic]

Should be Bee shrimp


Is different from a bee...

[GunmetalBlue]

Hi Pedro, those are Bumblebee shrimp, the variety that starts with the light stripe. You can see more of those in Bocher's picture gallery; he has some.
http://www.shrimpnow.com/mygallery/showimage.php?i=755&c=54

I should warn you though that certain countries have different names for them. According to this website, it says it is called a "Bee" (Hong Kong/Singapore/Taiwan), and "New Bee" (Japan).

However, since you are located in the USA, you will save yourself a HEAP of confusion if you refer to them as Bumblebee shrimp, as they are in fact a different color variety of Bumblebee shrimp or at the very least, a closely related subspecies. There can be quite a color/pattern variety in Bumblebee shrimp, I myself have noticed 3 or 4 different variations out of two different purchases. :shocked3:

-GB

[milalic]

Hi Pedro, those are Bumblebee shrimp, the variety that starts with the light stripe. You can see more of those in Bocher's picture gallery; he has some.
http://www.shrimpnow.com/mygallery/showimage.php?i=755&c=54

I should warn you though that certain countries have different names for them. According to this website, it says it is called a "Bee" (Hong Kong/Singapore/Taiwan), and "New Bee" (Japan).

However, since you are located in the USA, you will save yourself a HEAP of confusion if you refer to them as Bumblebee shrimp, as they are in fact a different color variety of Bumblebee shrimp or at the very least, a closely related subspecies. There can be quite a color/pattern variety in Bumblebee shrimp, I myself have noticed 3 or 4 different variations out of two different purchases. :shocked3:

-GB

I have like 5 different ones. I will put them in my 58G tank and see them breed.

[retardo]

However, since you are located in the USA, you will save yourself a HEAP of confusion if you refer to them as Bumblebee shrimp, as they are in fact a different color variety of Bumblebee shrimp or at the very least, a closely related subspecies. There can be quite a color/pattern variety in Bumblebee shrimp, I myself have noticed 3 or 4 different variations out of two different purchases. :shocked3:

-GB

Maybe we should just start calling some of them yellow jackets, queen bee, king bee, or other names... lol There is, unfortunately, no naming convention that any of us can use other than scientific names, but even those are constantly changing! GB, you and I had a thread about this before re: the use of "bumblebee," and I don't want to get that started again, because we'll still disagree... BUT I can tolerate the use of Bumblebee "white" or Bumblebee "black" where the color designations are the color of the first stripe.

:joking: HA! I think I may have just added more to the confusion.

[Beviking]

Oh great, now I have to go through the identification threads again! :rolleyes:

-Be

[silane]

you will save yourself a HEAP of confusion if you refer to them as Bumblebee shrimp, as they are in fact a different color variety of Bumblebee shrimp or at the very least, a closely related subspecies. There can be quite a color/pattern variety in Bumblebee shrimp, I myself have noticed 3 or 4 different variations out of two different purchases. :shocked3:

-GB

Agree on that, it appears that bee-look alike shrimps from different collection creeks have some variations in pattern.

This type in China is called "white head" according to an exportor friend, the shrimps are recognised for its distinctive white and black, a large portion of white on head and he charge more for this type.

[GunmetalBlue]

Oh great, now I have to go through the identification threads again! :rolleyes:

Be, like I stated earlier, different countries will have different names for them, ie., "Bee" (Hong Kong/Singapore/Taiwan), and "New Bee" (Japan). There aren't even proper scientific names yet, just the use of Caridina sp. "Bumblebee" and Caridina sp. "Bee." So, even less so with the different color variations. My feeling is, we need to try and understand that there are different naming conventions - so that if you are talking to someone say, in another country, you can try to understand which shrimp they are talking about and never assume your idea is the same as another's. ;)

Fruitpie, I have a feeling we are going to be seeing more evidence that all these species are more closely related than we think - although I'm not completely convinced (need more proof), I've seen at least one picture where it seems like Bumblebee and Bee have crossed. And I have heard from someone that they feel CRS and Bumblebee have crossed. All I can say is that I hope each of the pure respective species (Bee and Bumblebee) don't disappear from the wild. :(

-GB

[Beviking]

Thanks GB! That was the only thing I was sure about. What we in the USA call bumblebee, elsewhere is "new bee" and bee in USA is called diamond.

As per Fruitpie's sticky, I try to post using that nomenclature. I also assume my idea is NOT the same as another's :) (I am correct about bumblebee called "new bee" and bee called diamond right?)
If other hobbyists have attained these shrimp without knowing the differences, there is likely cross-breeding already, further complicating identification. Let's hope no one will contaminate the wild population of any species.

-Be

[retardo]

I've seen at least one picture where it seems like Bumblebee and Bee have crossed. And I have heard from someone that they feel CRS and Bumblebee have crossed. All I can say is that I hope each of the pure respective species (Bee and Bumblebee) don't disappear from the wild. :(

-GB

GB, do you have a link to said picture? I'd like to see and judge for myself. It's so hard to verify whether one species has crossed with another, especially based on hearsay. CRS and bumblebee (I assuming those with black stripe first) should theoretically not be able to x-breed. If the bumblebee is in fact a Bee, then that's a different story.

I completely agree that the original species should be maintained in the wild. We do the world a disservice when we eradicate entire species, like we have done often in the past.

[milalic]

GB, do you have a link to said picture? I'd like to see and judge for myself. It's so hard to verify whether one species has crossed with another, especially based on hearsay. CRS and bumblebee (I assuming those with black stripe first) should theoretically not be able to x-breed. If the bumblebee is in fact a Bee, then that's a different story.

I completely agree that the original species should be maintained in the wild. We do the world a disservice when we eradicate entire species, like we have done often in the past.

Seeing the picture would be nice.

I maintain both bumble bee and CRS apart. It is hard to tell if it is a real bumble bee or not. I had some that look exactly like a bumble bee but they had the 4 white dots in the tail. I have other looked as New bee(under species here) and they also have the white dots in the tail and no orange rostrum or tails.

Is hard to say if X species will crossbreed with Y. I have heard people say that white pearl(snowball) will crossbreed with Cherries, but I have a friend who has both together without them crossbreeding.

[retardo]

What we in the USA call bumblebee, elsewhere is "new bee" and bee in USA is called diamond.

The jury's still out on this one. Common names are so convoluted these days, it's hard to say what's what. No one knows exactly where the common name originates and to what species it refers to, but we use the names we see at the LFS or hear elsewhere as if it were the real thing. Wholesalers sometimes make up their own names for simplicity's sake also. :undecided

As GB mentioned, we should all learn the scientific approach (even a beginner's crash-course) to minimize the confusion. I'm guilty of using and throwing common names around, too, so, of course, I'm not helping the cause... :huh:


If other hobbyists have attained these shrimp without knowing the differences, there is likely cross-breeding already, further complicating identification. Let's hope no one will contaminate the wild population of any species.

I think the wild populations are pretty hard to contaminate (at least, I hope) unless some hobbyist releases their x-bred shrimp back into the wild. I do believe that most hobbyists do at least seek out some information about the species that they keep. That's the exact purpose of this forum and it's great to see so many take the time to learn and seek out info. :D

[GunmetalBlue]

Hi guys - there's a lot of ideas here - will try to comment on a few. About *potential crossbreds, a sticky problem that comes up is that some owners might feel defensive or upset, so want to tread lightly.

An example of a *potential Bumblebee X Bee crossing thread here:
http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/showthread.php?t=718

The shrimp from that link:
http://www.silentecho.org/aquaria/photos/BumbleBeeShrimp-caridinaSp2-05Nov01%20032w.jpg

Please note that I am not the only person who thought the shrimp in question was at least NOT a "classic" representation of any one species. Please also note that I state: "But to be sure if it is so, one would have to deliberately cross a Bumblebee with a Bee in an isolated tank and see if they look similar to your shrimp."

That gets back to using a scientific method as mentioned by Rich, to isolate facts and try to check to see if it is so. It can get sticky because who wants to do it or who has the room to isolate for this "experiment?" But if they do, I sure hope they're willing to share info. There is also another person who *suspects they have a BB X Bee and is hopefully going to take pics.

For the CRS X New Bee, here's a link: http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527
Robert states: "If you use new bee shrimps, you will get some more or less ugly hybrids in the best case."

Also here: http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/showthread.php?t=569
Fruitpie states: "I saw some unusual looking juvenile shrimps in a friend's mix tank of bumble bee and Crystal red, they do cross breed. ... The color of the cross product is uniquely ugly, it does not resemblance bumble bee nor crystal red, which is quite expected, it has some brown portion, but no bars like bee or CRS."

Anyways, I try to keep an open mind to each info as I get them and try to analyze the reliability of the source and of how much proof they have. I'll say this though, what I thought was true yesterday may not necessarily be true today.


I had some that look exactly like a bumble bee but they had the 4 white dots in the tail. I have other looked as New bee(under species here) and they also have the white dots in the tail and no orange rostrum or tails."

I have the "classic" kind of Bumblebee and it can have white dots on tail, so not sure if that is a dependable method of telling?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/ZeroCatgravity/Shrimp%20-%20Bumblebee/06BB108sig600W.jpg


Is hard to say if X species will crossbreed with Y. I have heard people say that white pearl(snowball) will crossbreed with Cherries, but I have a friend who has both together without them crossbreeding."

I agree, sometimes, even *if there are two species that have the potential to crossbreed in a given tank, they may not necessarily do so. That's a whole other interesting topic altogether! I am in fact trying to find out about the reality of Snowball and Cherries crossbreeding. As far as I know, they supposedly do, but haven't actually heard anyone come out and say they have seen it. The question I'm wondering about is if the offspring will or will not come out "hybrid-looking" per se, but might function like how mutation offsprings come out exhibiting recessive or dominant traits? I don't have the answer to that and will have to look into it further. :p

But along the same lines, check out this link: http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120&page=2&pp=10
In it, Robert states in reference to Tigers and Diamonds: "I don't know yet which environmental factors lead to cross-breeding of these species. Tigers are said to cross-breed very easy with diamonds. A friend of mine kept both species and got hybrids as fast as normal offspring of both species. I kept and keep both species for several years now in the same tank and never got any hybrid at all, even if the sex-ratio (like only females of certain species with only males of another species) would force them to do so. I don't know why I get no hybrids but I don't worry about it."

-GB

[milalic]

GB,

The problem with the descriptions is that for example, I can say your shimp might be a new bee...On the description it mentions that it can have a brown V shaped abdomen and the white can be there. Which also means that it can be a different color. It says it is very similar to the bee/diamond shrimp, but it does not say if it has the white dots in the tail...

Unless someone tries to breed them together to see if they crossbreed is hard to tell. I have some shrimp that look like the bumble bee in the species pages over here, others that the only different thing is the tail which ash the 4 white dots. I have what looks to be new bee with and without the white dots in the tail. I have what looks like new bee with orange rostrum and have other bee like shrimp I can not identify as any in this site or elsewhere. All are wild caught.

I guess this is a topic we can debate for a very long time... :)

Cheers,
Pedro

[silane]

Fruitpie, I have a feeling we are going to be seeing more evidence that all these species are more closely related than we think - although I'm not completely convinced (need more proof), I've seen at least one picture where it seems like Bumblebee and Bee have crossed. And I have heard from someone that they feel CRS and Bumblebee have crossed. All I can say is that I hope each of the pure respective species (Bee and Bumblebee) don't disappear from the wild. :(
-GB

I have seen unusual offsprings in a friend's tank of CRS and bumblebee. The number of crossed looking offsprings in much less in number than pure ones, it appears that they prefer to mate among the same species or cross breeding happens in a lower rate.

Recently, a shop here sells plum shrimp, with irregular dark brown/black stripes, claimed to be originated from Taiwan. It look like a cross to me, but I can be wrong. I think they should be given a better name, I have yet to see a black plum. :joking:

[silane]

GB,

The problem with the descriptions is that for example, I can say your shimp might be a new bee...On the description it mentions that it can have a brown V shaped abdomen and the white can be there. Which also means that it can be a different color. It says it is very similar to the bee/diamond shrimp, but it does not say if it has the white dots in the tail...

Unless someone tries to breed them together to see if they crossbreed is hard to tell. I have some shrimp that look like the bumble bee in the species pages over here, others that the only different thing is the tail which ash the 4 white dots. I have what looks to be new bee with and without the white dots in the tail. I have what looks like new bee with orange rostrum and have other bee like shrimp I can not identify as any in this site or elsewhere. All are wild caught.

I guess this is a topic we can debate for a very long time... :)

Cheers,
Pedro


milalic,

You could be right, it can be a new bee, very new bee or newest bee. :D I am trying to say, the current way that bee look-alike is named is not adequate and the id of them by based on naked eyes is not accurate, and I bet there are more variations and sub species has to be discovered or id.

Now, We can only broadly call them bumblebee and bee shrimps, based on the first appearing white stripes on head. And due to the special relationship of a type of bee shrimps that is related to CRS, diamond (diamond/bee) shrimp is indentified from the pool of bee shrimps (bee/new bee).

According to commerical collectors, shrimps collected from different creek has difference in pattern.

"Wierd" looking shrimps among a group of purchased shrimps can due to contamination (different species/tank/collection points/....), a cross breed or from the same species with "special" genes (one will say CRS of ten years ago and a SS grade one to be 2 difference species).

Agree that this is a topic we can debate for a very long time... :)