Spinach substitute

[terryschild]

Hello folks!

My name is Terry Schild and I am rather new to the forum. I have been lurking somewhat in the past as a guest but since I decided to renew my hobby with Freshwater shrimp, I decided to join in. I posted before to Armin in regards to his CRS.

I would like to bring to the community my experience:

I have no spinach to feed the shrimps and buying a whole bag would be a waste since nobody in the house eats spinach so I decided to try with Kale/Kai lan and something the chinese call Choi Sum/ Chye Sim. It seems to be a good substitute. The leaves are first thoroughly washed and the hard stems removed and I boil them until they are soft enough. They have to be boiled a little longer than normal spinach since the Kale/ Kai lan and Chye Sim have harder cuticles than spinach. The Chye Sim/ Choi Sum seems more readily accepted than the Kale/ Kai Lan. Has anyone in the asian community tried this?

The species so far which have reacted well with this substitute are as follows according to frequency or readiness in acceptance of the leaves
Caridina japonica ( They take to it readily)
Caridina babaulti / Neon Green
Caridina denticulata sp. var. Red/ Red Cherries
Caridina cf. breviata (bumblebee shrimp/Hommelgarnaal)
Neocaridina serrata var. Bee (Diamond shrimp)
Neocaridina serrata sp. Crystal Red

I have a species of Paleomonetes which take occasional bits of the leaves but I guess they are more interested in animal matter than vegetables.

Last but not least, Atyopsis moluccensis / Wood shrimp often capture floating particles of the leaves which the other shrimp stir up. Though they are not really eating the leaves directly, they may be sampling some particles fromt he water if it happens to drift in the range of their fan-like appendages.

The aforementioned shrimps learned to accept the substitutes but it took some time before they recognised it as food. I usually leave the leaves there for one and a half days till the leaves are reduced to mere veins (the harder parts of the leaves they cannot readily shred off). Please remove any uneaten food from the tank to avoid your water getting foul.

I hope to try if I could feed them organic Pak Choy/ Bok Choy next.

Here are a list of vegetables I am going to try with my shrimps:
Chinese Cabbage
Lettuce
Siu Pak Choy ( little pak choy)

I'll let you know of my results as soon as possible!

Happy Shrimping and Hello to you all once more!

Terry

[rain-]

Good luck with the experiment! Do you happen to have nettle (Urtica dioica) available in stores? We have some dried nettle in health stores and places like that. And my shrimps seem to like it.

[terryschild]

Hello rain!
Thanks for your reaction!

Well, do we have nettles? I do not buy them from stores. In fact I do not buy them period! Urtica dioica/Nettles as you know grow wild here in Europe and it is almost a pest :D ! I will try Nettles when they grow so I get them fresh and fortunately we live near a nature area so no chemicals or next to the road side! Grown natural and full of nutrients! Let us not forget Dandelion (we call them paardebloemen here). I will collect some and dry them myself or feed them after they have been boiled to see if they like it!

[silane]

Terry,

In ocassions that I cannot find spinach from the shop, I feed them with Siu Pak Choy and Kai Lan, they work equally well like spinach. Update us with your test on other vege.

Remember to ensure that there is not pesticide, best is to get from organic shop.

[terryschild]

Hello Fruitpie!

Most of the vegetables sold here are sold under "biologisch" or Biologically grown. No chemicals or pesticide. I wash them nonetheless out of habit. I have a Theory surrounding chrysanthemum leaves or Shungiku as it is called in Japanese ( not your usual kook fah/ Chrysenthemum flowers! Please note!)


The remainding list i have gathered up based on nutritional value are as follows:
Vegetables
Dandelion leaf and flower (187mg Ca (calcium) per 100g,2,7g Protein per 100g)
Hakusai/ Chinese cabbage(105mg Ca per 100g, 2,0g protein per 100g)
Siu Pak Choi/Little Bok Choy for English speaking Hobbyists( 105g Ca per 100g, 1.5g protein per 100g)
Horenso/ Japanese spinach ( seems they are different to the european spinach. possibly 99mg Ca per 100g, 2.9g protein per 100g)

Fruits
Figs
Green Beans

For vitamin content i am going to try some vegetables already known:
Carrot which posses vitamin A
Taugé/ Nga Choy or Bean sprouts which contain vitamin B

I will let our fellow hobbyists know what the results are. Positive and negative! Wish me luck!

Fruitpie and all chinese people out there. Have a Happy Chinese New Year. May you celebrate the year of the Dog with peace, prosperity and serenity. Best of Health and Wealth!:smitten: lol

GÓNG XÌ FÁ CHAI/ GÓNG HÉI FÂTT CHÒI and XÍN NÌAN KWÁI LÉ

[silane]

Thank Terry,

and I wish everyone:
年年有鱼
虾虾大笑

(Year with abundance and laughters). :)

[terryschild]

Ok folks, here is some feedback in what I noticed when I was feeding boiled carrot while testing vegetables suitable for shrimp consumption:

A Yamato numa ebi (Caridina japonica) was chewing on a peice of boiled carrot and of course one could see the food in the stomach and the gut of the shrimp. The droppings produced where orange and what happened next baffled me. A smaller Caridina babaulti and a Cherry shrimp gathered round the area next to the Yamato shrimp and began eating it's droppings :shocked: !



When they were done munching the shrimps orange droppings, their droppings were the normal dark brown or black as any normal shrimp would produce. This has occured over the past 3 hours till the time of writing. My question is this:

Is it possible that the smaller shrimp further digest the carrot after it was priorly digested by the Yamato? I know most shrimps eat detritus but the idea of coprophagous shrimp still escape me.

I enclosed a photo of the yamato eating tghe carrot and in this case, a CRS munching on the yamato's droppings.

[shrimpo]

This is not unknown in the animal world, when some goodness is left undigested in the droppings, I know for a fact tortoises will eat dog facies, and rabbits produce two types of droppings, one type light brown that are redigested a second time to finish removing all the goodness from it.
Other types of life have habits we sometimes find disgusting, but have a very sensible purpose. I am sure your shrimps get valuable nutrients this way. :embarasse

[retardo]

Very normal behavior. Shrimp are scavengers. They will eat anything that is edible. They don't differentiate between food and poop... to them, it's one and the same. lol

[terryschild]

Hello Shrimpo and Retardo,

I know about rabbits giving their food a double go and of cattle and other ungulates chewing the cud. Even dung beetles utilising dung from elephants and the likes but shrimp eating the droppings of other shrimps? It was something totally new to me.

I suspect that the Yamato shrimp merely digests the carrot briefly and the smaller shrimps have a way to further process the food to extract any leftover nutrients the droppings might contain. I did not find it disgusting, merely amazed;) I've seen many a strange thing in the animal world, so this merely came over to me as a surprise. :rolleyes:

[retardo]

The thing about shrimp are that they don't stop eating. I don't know how much of what they eat actually gets fully digested. It seems to me that shrimp don't have true "stomach" (I'm no biologist, after all); the more they eat and the faster they eat, the faster the poop comes out. Garbage in, garbage out!! :shocked:

[terryschild]

Ok as of today here are some updates of the vegetable test:

Hakusai/ Chinese Cabbage: Rather accepted but only if boiled until the leaf is very soft. about 5 minutes :embarasse .
Baby carrots and normal carrots: Small carrots are easier to slice and boiled until they are soft. The smaller they are the easier to utilise. As usual, Yamato-Numa-Ebi is the first to accept it. New Bee and Diamond as well as Crystal reds will accept this. Larger carrots take longer to boil but are accepted nonetheless once they are soft enough.

I then decided to try out another vegetable andI think it was utilised by other people before. Brussel Spouts! They take some time in boiling (20 minutes?), depending on size, age and season. The brussel sprouts were small, handy and were loved by most of my shrimp and they usually swarm round the soft, cooked brussel sprouts and pick at it until it is gone. One sprout could be halved after it is boiled to facilitate easy feeding. The Amano/Yamato shrimp took a large piece and hurried off while the smaller ones would jostle around for a place to feed on the leaves. So if anyone eating Brussel sprouts for dinner, keep one or two for your shrimp and give it a try!

In the coming weeks I'll be trying the rest of the vegetables/fruits in my list to see what could be used for our shrimps!

So far these work well as supplemental vegetables together with their usual staple diet of food tablets and algae. Please keep in mind of the proportions you feed them and always remove uneaten food to prevent fouling of the water.

[NanoDave]

I have no spinach to feed the shrimps and buying a whole bag would be a waste since nobody in the house eats spinach so I decided to try with Kale/Kai lan and something the chinese call Choi Sum/ Chye Sim. It seems to be a good substitute. The leaves are first thoroughly washed and the hard stems removed and I boil them until they are soft enough. They have to be boiled a little longer than normal spinach since the Kale/ Kai lan and Chye Sim have harder cuticles than spinach. The Chye Sim/ Choi Sum seems more readily accepted than the Kale/ Kai Lan. Has anyone in the asian community tried this?



Hi Terry, just to add that Kai Lan (al least those sold here) have one of the highest amounts of pesticides on them, wash very throughly if you use them. :)

[lifetapestry]

You can cook the bag of spinach and then keep the frozen stuff in the freezer forever. Defrost a small chunk and drop it into the aquarium. I always buy organic leafy greens to avoid as many pesticides as possible.

karla

[spinex]

Why and what organic food you should go for.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/organic/justasgood012006.cfm

I just it and found it very interesting especially sometimes we pondering to get organic spinach for our shrimp or not.

As recommended, spinach is recommended to go organic because it can be and is easily contaminated by pesticide in high level.

They also have a list whereby certain food you can go for conventional crop because the pesticide contamination is low and the price don't justify it.

[terryschild]

Hi Terry, just to add that Kai Lan (al least those sold here) have one of the highest amounts of pesticides on them, wash very throughly if you use them. :)

Hello NanoDave and fellow friends,

I might have mentioned it in another post but most of my vegetables are bought in the biologisch or Biological section of the fruits and vegetables area. Biological is the equivalent of what is called organic in Asia and other parts of the world. This means the plants are planted naturally and are chemical and pesticide free. Almost everything here has a normal and biological sort. So no worries about poisoning my shrimp for the time being!

The Kai Lan or Kale ( as they call it in english) seems suitable but I have decided to use Choy Sum/ Chye Sim (Fresh spring greens/ Green mustard) as it is easier to prepare and much more accepted by my shrimps.

I'm still testing other kinds of vegetables to see what is appropriate and what is not. So far so good. The reason why I am looking for substitutes is because I'm trying to stay clear from prepared foodstuff like flakes and pellets, eventhough they are very handy. Eventually I hope to get them to accept vegetables as their staple diet and algae tablets (like the spirulina powder I'm using) as a supplement.

Karla: that is an idea I never thought of, that is freezing spinach and offering them small chunks. Unfortunately I do not have a freezer (merely a simple fridge) so I'll stick to what is possible. Your idea however is quite sound!

Another experiment I may try is seaweed (for brackish water species of shrimp). Not your usual nori as that has soya sauce and oils in it. I mean Konbu ( a seaweed used in making Dashi in Japanese cuisine) and Wakame (the seaweed you find in Miso soup). I will have to study it's nutritional value and composition before thinking of them as an interesting food source. I'll let you all know of my results.

[Chris Low]

Hi Terryschild and all members,
I don't boil my veggie at all. Just fold the leaves small enough to be squashed by my two fingers till it soft and wet. Shrimps still love it....
Isn't boiling veggie destroy lots of good nutrient and leave behind mostly fibre only good for motion? In reality, shrimps feed on algae invested with small organism or bacteria....so shrimps are not fully herbivorous...detailed by one famous magazine.
I am not sure if a fully veggie diet is good for our pets. :huh:

[retardo]

In reality, shrimps feed on algae invested with small organism or bacteria....so shrimps are not fully herbivorous...detailed by one famous magazine.
I am not sure if a fully veggie diet is good for our pets. :huh:

Shrimp are scavengers and will eat anything.

[silane]

In reality, shrimps feed on algae invested with small organism or bacteria....so shrimps are not fully herbivorous...detailed by one famous magazine.
I am not sure if a fully veggie diet is good for our pets. :huh:


I believe to feed them with high protein animal based food is needed once in a while, just like in their natural habitat, they get to eat dead insects, insect larva and other dead animals.

[terryschild]

Hello Chris, retardo and fruitpie.

It is not to say that I keep my shrimp on a begetables only diet. Boiling vegetables for too long will get rid of the vitamens indeed. Steaming is another option. I never meant to state that the shrimps are only herbivorous. They are detritus feeders and they most certainly eat more than algae. My means of feeding them vegetables is merely to supplement their diet. Up till now the only meat they would ever come across is a dead or dying shrimp. I do not keep fish in my tank but often enough I have seen shrimps in my LFS swarming on dead fish and picking at the bits.

The only shrimp in my tank which readily accepts a truly omnivorous diet are my Paleomonetes . They readily pick up flake food/ pellets and bits of boiled egg yolk (in small amounts). It also eats some tubifex or bloodworm/midge larvae often add into the tank.

So Chris, What you read in the magazine is correct. They do feed on algae and small microbes that dwell on the layer of plants. Notice how they swab and scoop on surfaces with their claws? But did you think I was trying to keep my shrimps on a plain veggie diet? in an earlier post I said "Eventually I hope to get them to accept vegetables as their staple diet and algae tablets (like the spirulina powder I'm using) as a supplement."
My attempt to discover what vegetables are suitable for shrimp consumption does not mean I intend to restrict them to a pure catholic (vegetarian) diet. Rather, to expand their diet to include all kinds of possibilities within our reach. At least I personally would not like to keep my shrimp diet to plain algae and small invertebrates in their tank. In fact, they feed themselves pretty well enough with the rich organisms and small specks of algae in the established tank and I would like to think that I'm giving them treats upon occasion.

[retardo]

Hello Chris, retardo and fruitpie.

It is not to say that I keep my shrimp on a begetables only diet. Boiling vegetables for too long will get rid of the vitamens indeed. Steaming is another option. I never meant to state that the shrimps are only herbivorous.

Didn't think you did. :)

BTW, thanks for taking so much time to experiment with all types of veggies to see what they will and won't eat. It's of great added value to this forum. Aside from spinach and a few other veggies, no one has done so much extensive testing. Thanks, again.