My First Post

[tsteve]

Hello all,

I would like to introduce myself to this wonderful group of shrimp enthusiasts. My name is Todd and I'm from Seattle, Wa. U.S.A. I Have 5 freshwater tanks, 2 20 gals., a 37 gal, a 5 gal., and a 15 gal. The 15 gallon tank is relatively new (a month) but is cycled. In the other 4 tanks I raise guppies mostly but have a few half-beak livebearers, amano shrimp, green midget, blue midget, rainbow, and cherry shrimps.

Over the last few months I've become more and more interested in shrimps but have found them to be rather expensive. So, I've decided to attempt to raise my own shrimp. After much reading I decided that the cherry shrimp would be the easiest to breed. After further reading, I came to understand that a planted tank would be best. So I purchased the 15 gallon tank to raise live plants and shrimp.

I used eco-complete substrate and purchased many plants. I have almost 4 watts per gallon of lighting. I have the light on for 8 hours a day and the plants are thriving. I have a whisper 30 power filter on the lowest flow setting and no bubbles. I have a sponge pre-filter on the intake. I have a hagen CO2 canister and diffuser which uses yeast and sugar to create the CO2. The dissolved CO2 content is about 10 ppm. When setting up (about 4 weeks ago) I used seasoned water from the other tanks along with a seasoned filter insert. I also took a bit of gravel to help seed the biological filter. Needless to say the cycle went very quickly. All is seemingly well. When I test the water, I have 0 ppm amonia, 0 nitrites, and 10 ppm nitrates. My Ph is 7.2. The water temp is at 80 degrees Fahrenheit. I had an early bout with algae but got rid of it by shortening the amount of time the light was on each day from 12 to 8 hours and dosing the water column with Flourish excel, iron, and Fourish Supplement at about 1/2 the reccomended dose on the bottle just to be on the safe side. Like I said earlier the plants are thriving. I have recently transplanted all of my cherry shrimp from the other tanks, about 12, 2 with eggs and purchased about 12 more from the local fish store.

All of this sounds great and exciting, but I have a problem. It's a sad and frustrating one at that. My shrimps have slowly been dying off. I am so bummed out about this. I'm almost embarassed. The shrimp seem to be twitching every once in a while and falling on their backs. Then they get back up and seem fine, but every day I find one or two dead on the substrate. I have also noticed that a few seem to have a white stripe behind their heads that I never noticed when they were in my other, non-planted tanks. The shrimp never acted this way in my other tanks. They were happy and healthy. I did some more research and found that copper could be affecting my shrimps. I went and bought a copper test, but the test reads 0 ppm on my tap and my tank water. I've been feeding hikari crab cuisine twice a week along with hikari algae wafers. This is what's so frustrating. All of my water parameters seem ideal, or very close to it and my shrimp were happy and healthy in my other non-planted tanks. So I've narrowed it down to plants and substrate. Is eco-complete bad for shrimps? Are my plants (Green Wendti, micro sword, money wart, water sprite, Java fern, Java moss) somehow toxic to my shrimp? My shrimp were twitching and dying even before I stared adding supplements for my plants, so I don't think it could be that? Could my CO2 be too high? It doesn't seem too high. From what I've read, it could even be higher. I've also tested Potassium and Phosphates and they are also in the ideal range. What else could it be? Please, fellow shrimp lovers, help me before I murder even more of my babies. Thank you all for allowing me to join this wonderful community.

[Robert]

Hi Todd,
at first welcome to ShrimpNow.com!

It sounds as if you did everything right but you still have no success. It's a bit strange, yes. Your plants are not the problem. Just to make sure, do you use any lead to weight down the plants? Plants are sometimes sold with lead-bands around their stems to weight them down in the LFS. Lead is also toxic. Were your plants emersed when you bought them? Some farms use pesticides while raising the plants.

For me it sounds as if there is some slightly toxic stuff in your tank which sowly kills your shrimps. I can't say much about your gravel because here in Europe we don't get this product. So I never used it myself. But it's one of the reasons I can imagine.

Your CO2 set-up is not ideal for them but it's ok. I used yeast several times in the past to produce CO2 for my tanks. It never killed a shrimp when the CO2 level was still small. The commercial ones are also more stable, so the risk is rather small.

How do your shrimps look like? Do they look like in the other tank or are they pale, less red?

There must be a culprit which is the reason for your shrimp's death. Cherry shrimps are hardy, they don't die by putting them into another tank.

regards
Robert

[tsteve]

Thanks Robert for the warm welcome,

Some of my plants do still have the weight on the bottom. I also have a sponge on the roots of my micro sword as well. Should I remove the weights and spongy stuff? I Imagine I should and do a 20-30% water change every day for a week? Then go back to my weekly water change of 20%? O, and the plants were submersed at the LFS. I rinsed the plants with tap water pretty thuroughly when i got them home before adding them to the tank. I didn't say this earlier but I also use Aqua-safe chlorine and chloramine remover to make my tap water safe. could this be it? The shrimps color looks exactly the same. They were bright red when dying, except I noticed a few had a white stripe just behind their head right before molting. I also notcied that some of them were using their hind legs to curl their tail under and kind of scratch their backs. They were also very actively swimming around and twitching every once in a while and falling to the bottom on their backs motionless. Then they would get back up and seem fine for a while. Robert, thanks again so much for the reply! O Crap, I just noticed 4 more dead shrimps@!

[Ibn]

Just a quick question for you, Todd. What are you dosing as far as micronutrients?

[tsteve]

IBN,

I'm using the flourish line of plant supplements from Seachem. The bottle says Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium. .7-.01-.37. On the back of the label it says. "It contains a rich assortment of important micro elements, trace elements and other nutrients. These include calcium, magnesium, iron, and other elements that have been shown to be beneificial for aquatic plants." The copper amount is shown to be .0001%. I didn;t think this would be enough copper to pose a problem? The directions state to use 5mls for every 60 gallons. I have a 15 gallon tank and only dose 1/2 of what the bottle states. So I literally dose just under 1 ml once a week.

[Robert]

Hi Todd,
please remove the lead-bands from the plants and all the other stuff which is around them. Then plant them carefully in the gravel.

BTW, aquatic plants are in 99,9% of all cases sold submersed but in 95% they are raised emersed. This means that there could be some pesticides on them and that they need a certain time to adapt to the new environment under water to grow new leaves which are adapt to a life under water. Not all plants can adapt well to a submersed environment and some are no water plants at all (your plants are all able to life under water if your trivial names are right). So the plants may rot at the moment which adds much more organic waste to the water column than your shrimps could ever do.

Some small water changes can help but please don't do it every day. Every other day is enough. The tap water is different form your tanks water and these changes can stress your shrimps.

It could be helpful to catch the remaining shrimps and put them back in their first tank to make sure that they survive.

regards
Robert

[tsteve]

Robert,

Thank you. This all makes perfect sense. I have removed all the lead bands and sponges from the base of my plants, and performed a 40 % water change. I think I will do another 20% change in 3-4 days making it twice a week until I notice improvement. I will keep two shrimps in there as a tester and remove the rest back to their original home. I have not noticed much die off of any leaves, mostly new growth. In fact, I have to trim about every 3 days to keep the plants from breaking the surface of the column. Any other ideas or suggestions from anyone will be greatly appreciated :) Thank you all so much for allowing me to post my questions and welcoming me to this forum!

After the water change I have noticed something new and a little disturbing. I have found some tiny bugs attatched to the glass wall of my tank. I looked up what they were in the bugs and worms article. They are hydras, or they look very similair to hydras. They, to me, look almost like dust mites. They have 4-5 tenticles and are pretty clear in color. They are about 1 mm or less in size. Are these bad? Are these a sign of imbalance in my water conditions? Should I stop feeding for a while>? Should I even be concerned? Remember I raise guppies, do guppies eat these? Maybe I should add a guppy or two to eat these bugs? hmmm :huh:

[vinnymac]

I would recommend you double check all your water additives and food and make sure the shrimp tank isn't getting anything with toxic metals. Copper kills shrimp.

Also, keep your temp around 72-75F and see if that helps. I had similar issues with my crystal reds dying off and I found out it was a temp issue. I had the tank at 80F and it was fine for cherries and but too high for my cyrstals.

I lowered the temp to 73F and all is well now. Also, keep up with water changes.

[Robert]

Hi Todd,
regarding the hydras. They are no sign of imbalance in your water conditions. To stop feeding them won't help, they are too hardy and will survive.

No, you did nothing wrong, they came probably with the plants or from another tank when you added some gravel.

There are lots of different species of hydras, some become quit large, some are so tiny that you hardly see them with your naked eyes. The smaller they are, the less damage they could cause because they have to few toxic stuff in their tentacles (these are at least my experiences).

To add a guppy won't help because they won't eat them. If your hydras stay small, so they are a very small species, don't worry. I also have them in some of my guppy tanks and I don't care about them and my guppys do the same.

Let them live in peace in your tank, they are like planarias or ostracods, small and not harmful enough to worry about them. To get rid of them is almost impossible if you don't want to start again with this tank. You would have to disinfect everything, treat your plants etc. and all in al it's a lot of effort for such tiny creatures. It should be possible to ger rid of them, at least for a while. but it's not worth the effort.

A tank is like a small ecosystem with lots of little niches. As long as one inhabitant doesn't hurt another one, let them live there. Maybe it's a bit annoying to our eyes to see some planarias on the tanks walls but they do a good job because they feed on dead material and who knows on what else. All of these little worms and crustaceans and even the hydra found a niche in this new artificial ecosystem, so let them be. You also add moss to add some microorganisms as food for your shrimplets, so why shouldn't other animals use the same source of food? In a sterile tank you can't keep shrimps well because they feed on algae, deritrus, microorganisms and even dead specimen.

regards

Robert

PS your are welcome here, especially because you take time to write real sentences with a capital letter, some commatas, and a dot at the end. I hate these lazy sentences with " ....." but many members do not care (although they agreed to the rules when they registered).

[tsteve]

Thanks Robert,

That as well makes sense. I suppose It's good that the hydras are there. If they can live along with snails, then the right environment for shrimp must not be too far away.

[tsteve]

Thought you all might want to see my set up. Hope you enjoy :)

[tsteve]

Here's an update:

The shrimp are all doing well now. I did three things to stop the deaths. I removed all of the lead weights at the base of the plants. I lowered the temperature from 80 to 78 degrees fahrenheit. I changed the carbon filter insert with fresh carbon after doing a 40% water change. The shrimp are now eating and going about their business as I am used to seeing them. I am relieved to say the least. I just want to thank all of you who had advice for me and shared in my pain. You are all wonderful people! Now I look forward to seeing those eggs and raising baby shrimp!

Thank you all!

Todd

[simcb]

Nice setup. Just remember to change the active carbon regularly after sometime or not use any at all when the tank stabilized. I really hate the extra phosphate(causing algae boom for my case) that comes with active carbon. I heard that active carbon tends to leech back what it absorbs after a period for time.

[NanoDave]

yah, activated carbon should never be used outside of emergencies

[tsteve]

Why should activated carbon not be used outside of emergencies? I've used whisper power filters with activated carbon inserts in my non-planted tanks for over a year now and kept shrimp with no problems. After the carbon becomes inactive, I've read that it becomes a decent biological surface for the proper bacteria to grow, given all of the surface area. I change them once a month with no difficulty. It's only been with this planted tank that I've started to have problems, and to be honest I think I was just over eager to get the shrimp going and probably should have been more patient and waited 6-8 weeks before adding the shrimp. Is the carbon toxic to fish/shrimp? If it was I would expect a disclaimer saying so much on the box? I am just curious because I haven't read anything against the use of carbon filtration except the fact that baby shrimps can get caught in the insert and perish, as long as the filter inserts are changed on a regular basis ofcourse.

[spinex]

Why should activated carbon not be used outside of emergencies? I've used whisper power filters with activated carbon inserts in my non-planted tanks for over a year now and kept shrimp with no problems. After the carbon becomes inactive, I've read that it becomes a decent biological surface for the proper bacteria to grow, given all of the surface area. I change them once a month with no difficulty. It's only been with this planted tank that I've started to have problems, and to be honest I think I was just over eager to get the shrimp going and probably should have been more patient and waited 6-8 weeks before adding the shrimp. Is the carbon toxic to fish/shrimp? If it was I would expect a disclaimer saying so much on the box? I am just curious because I haven't read anything against the use of carbon filtration except the fact that baby shrimps can get caught in the insert and perish, as long as the filter inserts are changed on a regular basis ofcourse.

Activated Carbon (AC) is generally not harmful to shrimp/fish but if going to have a planted tank it's recommended you don't use them or else those liquid fertiliser that you are dosing will be deem quite useless. Especially those micro fertiliser that contain magnesium, iron ... etc.

[NanoDave]

Why should activated carbon not be used outside of emergencies? I've used whisper power filters with activated carbon inserts in my non-planted tanks for over a year now and kept shrimp with no problems. After the carbon becomes inactive, I've read that it becomes a decent biological surface for the proper bacteria to grow, given all of the surface area. I change them once a month with no difficulty. It's only been with this planted tank that I've started to have problems, and to be honest I think I was just over eager to get the shrimp going and probably should have been more patient and waited 6-8 weeks before adding the shrimp. Is the carbon toxic to fish/shrimp? If it was I would expect a disclaimer saying so much on the box? I am just curious because I haven't read anything against the use of carbon filtration except the fact that baby shrimps can get caught in the insert and perish, as long as the filter inserts are changed on a regular basis ofcourse.

Like you said, ac can also act as a bio media. So what is stopping your beneficial bacteria from migrating there where there are holes full of adsorbed proteins and nutrients? And then when you change it you throw the bb out with the spent ac.

The carbon is not toxic to shrimp but some ac's holes are made with using an acid. This acid leeches into the water and burns your shrimps esp when they moult.

As for disclaimer, you can forget about it. It is well established now that charcoal barbecues is carcinogenic for humans yet you dont see any disclaimer on their sacks.

[tsteve]

Thanks for the advice, it seems to make sense. I didn't know about the acid leeching back into the water. If it did I would have expected a change in pH which I've never noticed before after changing the insert. I've read that the carbon will only stay active for a week or so, so If I notice more shrimp deaths after that time period I'll have to rethink whats truly causing the toxicity in my water column. I think I narrowed it down to the plant weights, If it's not that then I don't know what it could be.

[NanoDave]

Thanks for the advice, it seems to make sense. I didn't know about the acid leeching back into the water. If it did I would have expected a change in pH which I've never noticed before after changing the insert. I've read that the carbon will only stay active for a week or so, so If I notice more shrimp deaths after that time period I'll have to rethink whats truly causing the toxicity in my water column. I think I narrowed it down to the plant weights, If it's not that then I don't know what it could be.

Not all ac leechs acid, only those that are made in that way. Those that are made the more expensive way using heat and pressure don't. Yes it is definately possible that it is causing problem in your tank so don't rule that out yet. If I were you I will take them out and see.