Did I slowly poison my shrimp with Copper in their food?

[Jane of Upton]

Hello, I'm new to the forum, but glad to find a Shrimp-oriented discussion!

I've kept Red Cherry Shrimp for quite awhile now, and until recently, I had a nice breeding colony going. I'd also put several in my community tanks for algae cleanup.

But, a couple of months ago, their breeding production dramatically dropped off. I got a few new ones, thinking perhaps they had become inbred. But recently, I've experienced a lot of die-off, and much more than would be expected of just the natural population turnover. I've done water changes, and checked the parameters, and nothing is out of whack. Plus, its happened in THREE different well-planted tanks, which vary with their substrates (two soil-based w/sand, one kitty litter clay w/sand), the "age" of how long they've been running, vary slightly with water chemistry, are kept at different temperatures and have different plant and fish populations. I was puzzled by what the common factor could be.

Then, one day, I read the ingredients of the Wardley's Shimp Pellets, which the fish, snails (huge brigs) and shrimp seem to love, and which I've been giving them more and more of lately. One of the ingredients is Copper Sulfate! Then I looked at the small and medium Pellets I got recently (New Life Spectrum Small Fish and Community formulas), and which has become the most frequent feed for my fishes (and by default, the shrimp as well). These also both listed Copper Sulfate in the ingredients! Now does it make sense to think that as toxins are often cumulative (especially in aquatic animals - think mercury warnings about fish from local ponds) I'm wondering if I've been inadvertantly poisoning my Shrimp with Copper? I run low-tech planted tanks, and feed pretty liberally.

I'm also wondering because a few shrimp went down to a big fish bowl in the basement (under lights with my terrarium plants) as the cleaning crew for some emergent-grown glosso as it transitions over to submerged growth. I brought the dregs of some flake food down to the plant stand, and they've gotten only that food, and rather infrequently. They're fine.

I started looking at ingredients in other fish foods online, and I'm really surprised at how many have Coppper Sulfate. So, I just got a selection of foods which do not list it in their ingredients.

Has anyone else ever experienced this, or doyou have any other thoughts on this matter?
Thanks,
Jane

[NanoDave]

Hi Jane, I'm just making a wild guess here, but do you dose any form of fertilizer or have in place a fertilizer base to your well planted tanks? Is it possible they may have slowly began to leech out into the water column? Some substrates and base fert are good for plants but contain stuff harmful to shrimps.. :)

Copper sulphate is actually very commonly found in most fish foods. Those that do not state them on the label usually have something like "+minerals" which may include copper sulphate. In fact, I found that many very high quality Koi food that are specially formulated to naturally enchance the colours of koi also contain copper sulphate. I believe where present, the amount of copper is very very small to be harmful. However of course, it is still better not to take any chances with them and try to avoid them if possible. However, I think it is unlikely that your shrimps died of copper poisoning. One way to tell if there is accumulation of toxic substances is to check the casualities. Are they all the young and weaker shrimps?

Inbreeding (at least in the case of fish) does not cause sudden deaths, they will only lead to increasing numbers of deformed offsprings, most of which cannot survive long. I'm not sure whether it will apply in the case of shrimps though.

Another possibility is disease. Have you recently added some new shrimps into your ongoing populations to diversify the gene pool that may have introduced disease?

Hope you'll be able to pinpoint the cause of the deaths soon.. good luck! :)

[Jane of Upton]

Oh , I just typed a long answer, and its disappeared into the cyber void! Ack!

Anyhow, thanks for the reply, Dave!

I mentioned the inbreeding only because I was at my wits end as to WHY my shrimp were not doing well.

I have an "el natural" setup, so I do not fertilize, and I have floating plants (frogbit, water lettuce) that are known to take up metals. The timeline still points me to the food issue.

In June, I switched to the two new pellet formulas. And, because of some new brigs snails, I was feeding the Shrimp Pellets more heavily. By the end of the summer, my colony was decreasing, not increasing, and I hadn't found any babies in weeks. Females were carrying eggs, only to drop them all, repeatedly. I blamed the heat at the time. But then, I had some deaths in the other two tanks as well, and it was fall by then, so the temperature was moderate again. I got the new shrimp from a very reputable breeder. They were home-raised, in shrimp-only tanks. They were also young, and within about two months, most had died on me as well. The ones that arrived as Juveniles to nearly adults lasted the longest.

The ones who have not had the food, because they were down in the basement transition tank, and fed only a spirulina flake occasionally, are OK.

Meanwhile, each of the tanks seems healthy. The various snails reproduced like bunnies, and the livebearers had babies. Even some of the egglayers' babies survived (its quite the little ecosystem I've got going) with no intervention. Plants are not showing any metal toxicity.

The two things that all three tanks had in common were the water from the tap for water changes, and the food. But, the basement setup (2 gal) also got water from the tap, including several top-offs.

I've noticed elsewhere on the site a few mentions of foods which remark "and no copper!", or "safe" algae wafers. I just don't trust any foods with Copper Sulfate listed any more.

I'm eliminating the ones with Copper (or at least the ones that list it in their ingredients) and I'm going to get a few more RCS after the Holidays. I'll post an update on how these guys do.

Any other input is highly appreciated!
Thanks!
-Jane

[simcb]

Hi Jane, welcome to the forum.

Maybe you can provide us with more information on your tank parameters like ammonia levels, nitrate levels, nitrite levels and etc. Are you using any water conditioners or just topping up straight off the tap?

Usually for me i do some aging in buckets with water conditions and air pumps so far so good the diamonds and cherries are breeding in my tanks.

As for buying food for shrimps, you probably need to get those algae waffer with a clear ingredients breakdown just in case, or try feeding them organic vegetable(boiled) if you got time they will love it. We cant be careless in buying food nowdays even for food we eat lol .

[NanoDave]

Oh , I just typed a long answer, and its disappeared into the cyber void! Ack!

Anyhow, thanks for the reply, Dave!

I mentioned the inbreeding only because I was at my wits end as to WHY my shrimp were not doing well.

I have an "el natural" setup, so I do not fertilize, and I have floating plants (frogbit, water lettuce) that are known to take up metals. The timeline still points me to the food issue.

In June, I switched to the two new pellet formulas. And, because of some new , I was feeding the Shrimp Pellets more heavily. By the end of the summer, my colony was decreasing, not increasing, and I hadn't found any babies in weeks. Females were carrying eggs, only to drop them all, repeatedly. I blamed the heat at the time. But then, I had some deaths in the other two tanks as well, and it was fall by then, so the temperature was moderate again. I got the new shrimp from a very reputable breeder. They were home-raised, in shrimp-only tanks. They were also young, and within about two months, most had died on me as well. The ones that arrived as Juveniles to nearly adults lasted the longest.

The ones who have not had the food, because they were down in the basement transition tank, and fed only a spirulina flake occasionally, are OK.

Meanwhile, each of the tanks seems healthy. The various snails reproduced like bunnies, and the livebearers had babies. Even some of the egglayers' babies survived (its quite the little ecosystem I've got going) with no intervention. Plants are not showing any metal toxicity.

The two things that all three tanks had in common were the water from the tap for water changes, and the food. But, the basement setup (2 gal) also got water from the tap, including several top-offs.

I've noticed elsewhere on the site a few mentions of foods which remark "and no copper!", or "safe" algae wafers. I just don't trust any foods with Copper Sulfate listed any more.

I'm eliminating the ones with Copper (or at least the ones that list it in their ingredients) and I'm going to get a few more RCS after the Holidays. I'll post an update on how these guys do.

Any other input is highly appreciated!
Thanks!
-Jane

No worries, Jane. About the new shrimps dying part, I think that is due to different water parameters from the breeders tank with your tanks in terms of variables like pH or water hardness. I had this experience with wild bee shrimps too. In the same outcome, the juveniles adapted better while the adults perished. It shouldn't be toxic levels of anything(copper or nitrogenous waste) because shrimps don't adapt to them, and the juveniles should be the first to go. Rather, it is just the difference in variables like pH or water hardness. :)

Also, snails are sensitive to copper too. If they are reproducing like bunnies then it may not be toxic levels of copper. However, it may be they have a higher threshold for copper, which is very possible consideriing they have a much higher threshold for pollution compared to shrimps.

I guess the best way is to do water change and give them completely new foods and see if the situation gets better. There is also a type of orangy thing on sale in the lfs here that can be used to remove metals. Perhaps you can look for a similar product and put it in your filter chamber if the space allows. :)

[silane]

Hi Jane,

How do you do maintenance in your "el natural" setup? What filter are you using?

Shrimp death could be due to lack of or insufficient maintenance of tank and filter.

[Jane of Upton]

The "El Natural" setup refers to a heavily planted tank that does NOT depend on CO2 and fertilizer dosing. Nor does it use a laterite-based substrate.

I DO do tank maintenance, and water changes, and filtration. I usually sipon off any accumulated mulm, and replace with conditioned water. I keep a filter with mechanical and some biological filtration going - just the sponge part, which I clean regularly. The plants and resident bacteria provide the rest of the uptake. Weeding and thinning out the plant biomasss removes any metals that come in through water changes.

I've now switched foods to only those without copper compounds listed in the ingredients, and I'm hoping to get some more shrimp in a few weeks. I'll see how they fare, and of course keep tabs on the water conditions.

-Jane