Sulawesi tank

[Lucas]

Hello everybody,
I have this question in my mind for a long time: at salawesi srimp tanks clear water with 0 NO2 - NO3,4 - NH3,4 is required and at the same time almost no food at all. One more thing that is required is very well cycled and mature tank.Let's suppose that we run a tank with several fish in it in order to have this kind of tank and later on (when the tank is well cycled and mature) we do a major water change with the parameters that match for Salawesi shrimps.I thing that[U][U] since the water now will have very little waste the biology in the filter and the gravel will "die" since there will be no "food" (waste) for the nitrifying bacteria etc. Is this right or wrong ? What is your experience when first introducing shrimps in the tank for the first time ? In my opinion the "shock at the tank's biology is major and perhaps the "1 week dying" period which is often to hear could be areaso for that.
Please forgive my Engish
Lucas

[countcoco]

Hi Lucas,

I don't think the denitrifying bacteria would die following the removal of fish and a major water change. If you are concerned, you can dose a product like Nutrafin cycle, which is essentially beneficial (aerobic) bacteria prior to adding the shrimp.

FYI, I had 20-30 ppm NO3 when I introduced my cardinal shrimp and they were fine.

[Lucas]

Thanks a lot countcoco for answering.Nutrafin cycle or any other product like this makes me sceptical.There is a lot of conversation about this and the outcome is that 90% of users don't believe what the "label" says.If I deside to grow Salawesi shrimps that means that the investment will be big and I would like to avoid any possible mistakes.
Reading from other people who breed Salawesi shrimps I believe that most of the casualties take place at the first 1-2 weeks and I'm trying to understand the reason for this.Most of them do everything right (parameters tank cycling etc). What was the story with your tank ?Is it posted somewhere ?
Thanks and sorry for my bad English once again
Lucas

[Anubia]

Reading from other people who breed Salawesi shrimps I believe that most of the casualties take place at the first 1-2 weeks and I'm trying to understand the reason for this.Most of them do everything right (parameters tank cycling etc). What was the story with your tank ?Is it posted somewhere ?
Thanks and sorry for my bad English once again
Lucas[/QUOTE]

Hi Lucas... The problem we have in the UK is getting good captive bred shrimp from either friends or local breeders in the area. Sulawesi are still relatively new to the shrimp hobby / enthusiast in the UK and most of us are keen to keep these but are sceptical as you are by the loss and sensitivity of these species.

The UK LF stockists tend to ship Sulawesi in from Indonesian distributors and many are lost because of poor shipping, transit being too long, the shrimp getting cold and poor husbandry when stocked at the LFS. I've seen Sulawesi Dennerli kept in with CRS, the shop owner then wonders why the mortality rate is so poor. The other problem is when these shrimp arrive already stressed, we the shrimp enthusiast buy them ......We then add more stress attempting to acclimatise them into our tank environments.

I am keen to keep these myself but will ensure I buy from a reputable breeder ( probably a German distributor/ breeder ) and request that they confirm that the sold shrimp are captive bred and that they provide their own water params so you can mature and stabilise your environment to suit ( PH, temp, Kh&Gh TDS). The transit time is much shorter and I would onmly order once the weather is warm enough to ensure safe transit.

I would also recommend that you drip feed the acclimatisation period to limit the stress and mortality rate.

I think to keep these shrimp successfully requires a slow, sensible approach....Once you have succeeded in keeping these shrimp for about 4 wks and your tank is an ideal habitat then I'm sure you will have success in breeding, as many forum members have done.

There are some very good forum posts, so read as much as you can ....

[Lucas]

Anubia,
First of all , thank you for your reply.I agree 100% with everything you wrote.I believe that I read a lot so far from forums , scientific publications , etc.This does not solve the problem instead it may be more confusing in too many cases.Since I don't have the oportunity to find a local store I'm buing from Germany.In case I'll not suceed I must wait a long time until the importer decides to bring a new shipment and of course nobody likes to see dead animals by knowing that there could be something that could be improved.I'm still focusing at the questions I have (top of page) and trying to see if other people have straight answers so I could elliminate this as a problem.
Thanks once again

[countcoco]

Thanks a lot countcoco for answering.Nutrafin cycle or any other product like this makes me sceptical.There is a lot of conversation about this and the outcome is that 90% of users don't believe what the "label" says.If I deside to grow Salawesi shrimps that means that the investment will be big and I would like to avoid any possible mistakes.
Reading from other people who breed Salawesi shrimps I believe that most of the casualties take place at the first 1-2 weeks and I'm trying to understand the reason for this.Most of them do everything right (parameters tank cycling etc). What was the story with your tank ?Is it posted somewhere ?
Thanks and sorry for my bad English once again
Lucas

I have a little journal for my tank in the sulawesi tanks and shrimp subforum.

I agree with anubia about getting the shrimp from a reputable breeder. Make sure that they are selling captive bred shrimp because they suffer far less casualties than wild caught ones. The large initial losses that people report are probably mostly due to stress from the shipping process, not the tank conditions (so long as good parameters are maintained). I purchased 22 from a hobbyist and suffered zero losses even though the post office delivered them a day late.

You should also spend the extra money for express or expedited shipping.

When you set up the tank, make sure you include lots of tight hiding spots and have strong lighting on top of the tank. I have 35 watts of t-8 lighting over my 38l tank and I left it on for 24 hours a day and dosed iron to encourage strong algae growth. Algae is the base of their diet and they will probably be unhealthy unless you provide them a constant source of it.

Some people claim cardinals don't like strong lighting, but I believe this only applies to wild caught cardinals. Mine always seem to be in hiding before I turn the lighting.

[Lucas]

countcoco,
Merry Xmas to you and all the people at this forum.I agree with you for minimizing the casualties by trying to buy Fxxx breed and shiping them as fast as possible with heater packs , CO2 release bags , etc.What surprised me was the 35W T8 for 38 lt /24 hrs.Do you find it necessary ?
Thanks for replying
Lucas

[yu390705]

Lucas,

Per my experience, NO3 is not a problem but NO2 is, you have to be very careful about NO2 index
especially when you take chipped coral as your substrate the NO2 will raise very easily in the first 1-2 months, and may burst after you feed some high-protein food such as spirulina powder
Also, don't count on de-nitrification except your substrate is very thick

About choosing the shrimp I suggest you buy it directly from local breeder, that is the best case.
Keep the transportation time short can make the surviving rate high.
Also, if the breeder's water condition is close to your tank's, then that even makes zero casualty. if not, some will die during the first 1-2 weeks

[Lucas]

Lucas,

Per my experience, NO3 is not a problem but NO2 is, you have to be very careful about NO2 index
especially when you take chipped coral as your substrate the NO2 will raise very easily in the first 1-2 months, and may burst after you feed some high-protein food such as spirulina powder
Also, don't count on de-nitrification except your substrate is very thick ]I understand the relation of alkaline water and NO2 - NH3 - NH4 , especially if the substrate is also alkaline , this is the reason I always put neutral substrate.Thiw way it's easier in case of parameters problem to locate the problem easier and not wondering if can be a reason.[/COLOR]

About choosing the shrimp I suggest you buy it directly from local breeder, that is the best case.
Unfortunatelly there are no local breeders.The closest one is in Germany.
Keep the transportation time short can make the surviving rate high.[FONT="Book Antiqua"](200 € if somebody wants the best conditions)
Also, if the breeder's water condition is close to your tank's, then that even makes zero casualty. if not, some will die during the first 1-2 weeks
Thanks alot sharing your experience.
Lucas

[yu390705]

Hi Lucas,

I am sorry that I did not tell it very clearly
It is not about the pH of substrate, it is about substrate type.
If you take inorganic material such as chipped coral, ceramic sand or volcano rock as your substrate, the NO2 -> NO3 process will not be so strong as soil substrate
The principle why it is will be a long story, if you're interesting I can tell something more.
also, NO2 is the most poisonous toxin for shrimps, even more than NH3, so even you take neutral substrate the NO2/NO3 raise still happens, you need to do periodically water change until your tank is stable.
(BTW it will take about half to one year)

[Lucas]

I understand that there are differences and I admit that I know little about it.Please post what you have about this principle.
Thanka a lot
Lucas

[yu390705]

first of all, nitrafication bacteria needs organic food to support life and it multiplies slower than nitrification bacteria.
Second, for micro view of bio supply chain, organic substrate provides more fertile environment to support small arthropod, Heterotrophic bacteria and easy to glow bio-film, hence the nitrification system has plenty energy to grow up.
If your substrate is inorganic, then the bacteria system will grow slowly by the accumulation of organic materials such as food you drop and metabolite in your tank.
So in the first 1-2 weeks a soil tank will burst NH4/NO2/NO3, but it will be stable soon, and only NO3 increases after you feed, while for sand tank you can see no obvious increase of NH4/NO2/NO3, but they all will increase after but your shrimp in and start to feed tem.
This is why I said you need periodical water change and the tank stable date will take 6-12 months

[Lucas]

Yes , ofcourse. In my case I prefair neutral substrate and longer period time to build biology for the reson mentioned before.Thanks for sharing.
Lucas

[countcoco]

first of all, nitrafication bacteria needs organic food to support life and it multiplies slower than nitrification bacteria.
Second, for micro view of bio supply chain, organic substrate provides more fertile environment to support small arthropod, Heterotrophic bacteria and easy to glow bio-film, hence the nitrification system has plenty energy to grow up.
If your substrate is inorganic, then the bacteria system will grow slowly by the accumulation of organic materials such as food you drop and metabolite in your tank.
So in the first 1-2 weeks a soil tank will burst NH4/NO2/NO3, but it will be stable soon, and only NO3 increases after you feed, while for sand tank you can see no obvious increase of NH4/NO2/NO3, but they all will increase after but your shrimp in and start to feed tem.
This is why I said you need periodical water change and the tank stable date will take 6-12 months

What specific types of substrate do you prefer to use in your shrimp tanks.

[countcoco]

countcoco,
Merry Xmas to you and all the people at this forum.I agree with you for minimizing the casualties by trying to buy Fxxx breed and shiping them as fast as possible with heater packs , CO2 release bags , etc.What surprised me was the 35W T8 for 38 lt /24 hrs.Do you find it necessary ?
Thanks for replying
Lucas

I only did this while the tank was cycling, although I still leave the lights on for 12-16 hours daily.