KH & GH for Cardinal Dennerli..?

[Anubia]

Guys & Guru's of the invertebrate world...

I'm recycling a Sulawesi nano tank at present (2 wks in) and will cycle and mature for about 4 wks before purchasing Cardinal Dennerli / Harlequins from a German breeder.

My tank - with 2 weekly water changes are

Temp 28
Ph 7.0
Ammonia - 0.0
Nitrate - 0.5
Nitrite - 0.0
GH - 3.0
KH - 4.0

His tank params are -

Temp 29
GH 8>12
KH 8>12
Ph 8.0

I can procure R/O water with a Malawi mineral buffer which gets my tank water close to the PH level but only gets to KG&GH 7....as long as I drip feed the acclimatation period do you think that this will suffice the water params required to keep these beautiful shrimp.:undecided

Thx for listening...

[Scorpio]

Firstly, can I seriously recommend against the purchase of Caridina woltereckae? I'd hate to see someone from the UK where there is literally no shrimp available have to watch all of his imported shrimp die. They're simply not worth the hassle mentally and financially. Caridina dennerli are far more forgiving, as I am sure you know; but in practice this means a lot more.

I think you need to focus on perfecting the pH value, personally. I think that there is a greater chance that a shrimp will be able to adapt to different GH and KH, and if not there will still be some that manage to and they will produce a population of shrimp that can thrive in these water hardnesses. My tank-bred specimens are much healthier than their parents. This is because of two reasons; firstly they were born in the same water parameters they live in, and secondly they are the offspring that could survive these conditions (different genes etcetera).

If you wish to increase your GH and KH, you could always add coral sands and other alkaline substrates.

Remember, with these shrimp the longer and slower the process of acclimatisation, the more chance they will acclimatise better. It's hard to resolve the conflict of sensibleness and impatience, haha :P

[imke_j]

Have you seen this post?
http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/showthread.php/4613-water-for-cardinals
Using coral chips permanently raises TDS and GH in unwanted heights. Somebody very successful in breeding this shrimps uses rain water and adds some Koi-Refine and Seramineralsalt to raise TDS to 350. PH raising is done by simple aeration only (sponge filter).

I would try only to raise the pH of your tank by aeration and keep the rest untouched.

further reading (Lake Matano)
Crowle, Sean: The biogeochemistry of tropical lakes: A case study from Lake Matano, Indonesia

[Scorpio]

imke_j, do we know what TDS, GH and KH values Caridina dennerli responds to best? There are so many conflicting opinions.

[imke_j]

I think it depends on whether your shrimp are wild-caught or home-bred. In Germany, older populations are mostly kept between 400-600ms. Gh max is 11 and KH max is 9. If you have a look at the water parameter of the Matano lake, you'll find Der pH 7,9 - 8,5, GH 6 - 7, die KH ~ 5, 28 - 30 °C. Having failed with my Sulawesi Goldflakes, where I had higher TDS, I now would adjust the water lower. Here are three measurements of my former tank:

date parameter of my tank
ph: 7,82
temp: 26 degree Celsius
ppm:408
dGH: 23,5
ms: 815

ph: 7,92
temp: 26 degree Celsius
ppm:357
dGH: 20
ms: 715

ph: 8,0
temp: 27 degree Celsius
ppm:358
dGH: 20
ms: 716

The tanks has been running without interruption since June; shrimp arrived end of september 2009. The technical details:

tank size: 40x40x25 (cm)
volume: 40L brutto / 36 L netto
soil: aquaclay
filtration: Tetra EX600 external canister, undergravel-air-filter
extras: JBL UV sterilizer, 9 watt
2 tylomiania sp. yellow, 14 caridina spinata

[Anubia]

Hi Imke_J

I now have my TDS meter and both my tank (provided R/O water - LFS) and tap water have low TDS readings, 71 & 90 PPm, which I think means that we have relatively soft water in my region.

What would be the best way to raise TDS for Sulawesi shrimp keeping or do you think it best just to leave TDS, KH & GH alone and ensure that temp and PH levels are kept to best practice ?

Thoughts and kind regards...

[imke_j]

What would be the best way to raise TDS for Sulawesi shrimp keeping or do you think it best just to leave TDS, KH & GH alone and ensure that temp and PH levels are kept to best practice ?

Working with soft water without unknown components is the best for keeping Sulawesi shrimp. I know two methods to prepare soft water for Sulawesi:

1. (taken from Roland Blankenhaus)
In a canister with 120L aeration is done for a week. Besides, 4 bags with 1L coral chips are in the water. They will raise hardness. One day before the regular water changes in his tanks, he measures KH. To adjust it at KH 3 he addes 1 heaping teaspoon of Sera Mineralsalt.

2. another keeper simply uses rain water and adds Sera Mineralsalt until 350ms are reached. Temperature around 27-28 degree Celsius.

The point is that we suspect tap water to have 'dangerous' parts for the Sulawesi shrimps. It's alway good to make pure or soft water harder then vise-versa. Hope that helps!

Imke

[Anubia]

Hi Imke_J...thx again for your prompt reply..


Working with soft water without unknown components is the best for keeping Sulawesi shrimp. - Agreed......:cool:

2. another keeper simply uses rain water and adds Sera Mineralsalt until 350ms are reached. Temperature around 27-28 degree Celsius.

The point is that we suspect tap water to have 'dangerous' parts for the Sulawesi shrimps. It's alway good to make pure or soft water harder then vise-versa. Hope that helps!

Imke

Re the 2nd solution ...above.

Can I not just use bought R/O water ( Soft water TDS rating 90) and add Sea Mineral salt to get to the magic 350MS...? Sorry for the simple question, but what does 350MS relate to TDS figure wise....If my TDS is 90 MPS....do I need to run a calculation to get to my MS figure...?

Many thx...

[imke_j]

Can I not just use bought R/O water ( Soft water TDS rating 90) and add Sea Mineral salt to get to the magic 350MS...? Sorry for the simple question, but what does 350MS relate to TDS figure wise....If my TDS is 90 MPS....do I need to run a calculation to get to my MS figure...?
Yes, of course, you can! TDS to ms conversion is getting in advanced physics; please check this page: http://www.stevenswater.com/water_quality_sensors/conductivity_info.html
You have TDS 90; this is 141 ms. (see here: http://www.lenntech.com/calculators/conductivity/tds-engels.htm). Hence, you need add a GH raiser until you have 224 ppm.

All this stuff sounds more complicated then it is. The main advise is to work with soft water, raise hardness with common additives and prefer raising GH to KH.

[Lutz Döring]

Well, beneath the discussion of correct water parameters like pH, GH and KH, we don't know much about the different other water-elements in the lakes of Sulawesi. And another thing is the correct food of suitable algae they have in their natural biotope.

I agree with Scorpio that the larger number of imports of Sulawesi shrimps died, so I think, it is not a shrimp for "normal" shrimp enthusiasts but for professionals, And "professional" means not I have had several species of shrimp which all disappeared within half a year.


Just my two cents.

[Scorpio]

I will test my water parameters again next week and report back here.

I now have 7 Caridina dennerli adults and about 8 babies, so they're doing well in these conditions considering it's been 3-4months and I'm on my second batch of babies. Also, I have now acquired 12 Caridina caerulea! One is already pregnant, so fingers crossed. They survived shipping very well, and these shrimp are already doing much better than my cardinals did! It may be that these are a more suitable starter Sulawesi species than the cardinal.

[Anubia]

Good news Scorpio.....let me know how your water params are and goog luck with the new colony.

Hopefully when you can get a large enough colony of Dennerli we will be banging on your forum door for shrimplets...LOL.

I've postponed by order from the German breeder as it's now getting colder and the thought of a 3 day shipment feels me with dread. I'll keep the tank till Spring and hope I can find a UK breeder that can spare some...

[Scorpio]

Word of caution: Caridina caerulea eat Caridina dennerli babies. Yes, all my babies EATEN. The new shrimp have been shunned to another tank. Time to start again...

[Scorpio]

Water Parameters measured 29.10.10
pH: 8
KH: 6
GH: 9

[imke_j]

Word of caution: Caridina caerulea eat Caridina dennerli babies. Yes, all my babies EATEN. The new shrimp have been shunned to another tank. Time to start again...
I am sorry for you, that's awful. Perhaps the caerulea arrived totally hungry and would not eat the dennnerli babies in normally? Your water parameter sound good - keep on posting, please :)

[Scorpio]

Thanks a lot imke_j, I'm still quite unhappy about losing the baby shrimp, but I'm sure they'll breed again eventually. I think you're right, all Sulawesi shrimp seem to arrive very hungry. It makes me wonder if they're not fed before they're shipped out...

On the bright side I have two pregnant Caridina caerulea, so I must have their water parameters right. Let's hope they're prolific!

[mordalphus]

Caridina caerulea will breed in any conditions, haha! They are like the Sulawesi equivalent of red cherry shrimp.

As far as keeping parameters good for my Sulawesi tanks, I use straight RO water (ph 5.6, gh 0, kh 0), and the bucket I use for WC I have 3 inches of crushed coral on the bottom. So I fill the bucket with RO, bubble it overnight and do 10% water changes weekly with that. My tank has a layer of crushed coral on the very bottom, covered in turface and sand. With this setup, I've been able to keep TDS at 280, and my c. caerulea, and c. dennerli are breeding great (they are all tank raised, no wild caught). I also have all types of tylomenia snails which breed impossibly fast.

I keep too much light above the tank, with only moss for plants, and it grows a thick sheet of algae on everything, which the snails and shrimp seem to love.

Hope this helps.

Also, have you actually seen that the c. caerulea actually hunted the babies and killed them? I've never seen that before nor heard of it, but it could just be my shrimp have so much places to hide it was never a problem. Perhaps your babies just died from something else?

[Anubia]

Water Parameters measured 29.10.10
pH: 8
KH: 6
GH: 9

Looking good Scorpio....Do you know your TDS stats..?

[countcoco]

If you're ordering your cardinals from a german breeder, they will most certainly be tank bred. Therefore, it's probably best to contact them regarding their parameters and try match the values they give you.

[Anubia]

If you're ordering your cardinals from a german breeder, they will most certainly be tank bred. Therefore, it's probably best to contact them regarding their parameters and try match the values they give you.

Hi Coco...have already done that and my water params are as close to the German breeder as I can manage....Looks like I've missed the boat re shipping though as we are both under the thought process that it is to cold to shoip to the UK now...!! even with good shipping conditions and heat packs.

I'll keep the tank running and order again in Spring...In the meantime I'll setup another tank and try breeding some decent CRS SS+....to keep me from getting bored in winter, although don't mention that to my wife...as she will find some jobs to do..LOL

[Broddan]

My cardinals breed like crazy.

KH 8
GH 8
No good pH measuring instruments but somewhere 7.5-8

[yu390705]

So I believe the water condition can have a explanation.

Since Sulawesi cardinals are lake shrimps, so they like stable environment and has less stress sustaining capability when water condition changes (especially when water change with large quantity)
1. pH: around 8 <-- it fits to original data of Malili lake system. if pH is too low (under 7) the shrimplet will not survive well
2. GH: around 8 <-- also, near the value of Malili lake system. If too low, shrimps will get trouble with ecdysis, if too high, the shrimps will get very weak and may die when water condition moves (especially water change or move to another tank with different water condition)
3. KH: around 8 <-- near the value of Malili lake system, if too low the pH will be easy getting low, then you need to do water change or adjust your water, thus increases the risk of shrimp health and survivability

So Broddan you got a great tank, nice job!