Cambarellus patzcuarensis

[Acsuth]

Hmm...I guess my last post was deleted? That's nice LOL I thought this forum had potential, but if no one can post about stuff they have for auction, sale or trade -- it's basically the same as the other shrimp forum. Anyway -- if anyone has any questions about breeding/care on this species or other dwarf crays, I'd be happy to discuss it in detail and at length....seeing how there is so little information available to us on-line.
Well, sorry if I offended anyone with my last post here -- but I looked through the rules and I didn't find anything against posting about an auction you have up....anyway....


Amanda

[zwergkrebs]

Talking about Cambarellus patzcuarensis, I can show you some pics to enjoy:
Look at my photobucket. I do selective breeding to get different color types.

By now, I have an almost red type and a light orange type. The one on the right would be an average striped one:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/zwergkrebszuechter/patzcuarense/rot-normal-gelb-aqua.jpg

Compare coloration to a crystal red shrimp, also on the pic:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/zwergkrebszuechter/patzcuarense/cposuperrotvsgelborange.jpg


Dark Wild type:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/zwergkrebszuechter/patzcuarense/braunhelldunkel.jpg

Some blue ones:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/zwergkrebszuechter/patzcuarense/braunvsblau2.jpg

Orange with white:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/zwergkrebszuechter/patzcuarense/cpogestr.jpg

F1 output breeding orange with wild type:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/zwergkrebszuechter/patzcuarense/cpimnnlichrtlich.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/zwergkrebszuechter/patzcuarense/cpigestr.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/zwergkrebszuechter/patzcuarense/cpiwei.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/zwergkrebszuechter/patzcuarense/cpi.jpg

Best Regards,

Andy

[retardo]

wow nice pix! I especially like the orange one. I would've thought they were bigger, too, but they're don't seem THAT much bigger than CRS. :shocked:

[zwergkrebs]

Just about 4cm. F1 hybrids with wild type get a little bigger cause of heterosis-effects. But no bigger than 5 cm usually.

[Acsuth]

the blue-type is quite nice...are they breeding fairly true? Are you offering any yet? Also -- do you see any orange type when you cross the wild-hybrids back to orange?? Cool pics -- thanks


Amanda

[zwergkrebs]

I have not many of the blue ones. Will see whether I will succeed in creating a pure strain.
Orange coloration is inherited intermediary after Mendel. Look at the F1, they show some orange color, of course brown is stronger and they look mostly brown. If you breed F1 with orange, you will get about 50% orange. Just like Mendels 1st (?) law says it.

[Acsuth]

Andy,
What is the crab species you have in your photobucket? Does it reproduce in freshwater?


Amanda

[zwergkrebs]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/zwergkrebszuechter/8beab82e.jpg

Thats no crab, but an Aegla platensis. There is more than just crabs, crays and shrimps in frest water. They are neither, but equal. Have colonized fresh water as 4th type of crustaceans. Nice species from Southern America, that gets only 4cm in size and reproduces in fresh water. Funny to look at it walking. It is very clumsy.

[Acsuth]

Very interesting -- I have only ever heard of Aegla....never seen a photo till now -- it's not easy to come by these kinds of animals around here. Please let me know when you have young available. Are there any color variations yet?

thanks,

Amanda

[zwergkrebs]

There are dozens of species, that might look different, sure. I have just this one. Some are grey-bluish, some brown with a golden hue. The Japanese are said to have orange and blue ones.

[Acsuth]

Fascinating....I would love to see an orange one. Do you know of any good webpages with information on the freshwater aeglas? I would like to know more about their behavior, diet etc. Can they be kept with crays and shrimp or are they aggressive?

[silane]

I am noob on Cambarellus Patzcuarensis. :D What are the water parameters for them? Anything to take note to make sure their exoskeleton maintain in good shape?

[Acsuth]

I am noob on Cambarellus Patzcuarensis. :D What are the water parameters for them? Anything to take note to make sure their exoskeleton maintain in good shape?

I find they are quite adaptable to water conditions as long as the water is clean and aerated. Do you have any experience with C. shufeldtii? The care is pretty much identical. Some people like to feed foods fortified with calcium and iodine, or add such liquid drops to the water. Mine seem to thrive either way -- right now they are very healthy and breeding in a Ph of 7.6...I find they are the most productive breeders at temperatures in the lower 70s rather than higher temperatures -- though they still may breed ok. I also find the males to be a bit more aggressive at higher temperatures.
If you have many of them together in a tank, it is best to give them hiding places such as plants, little caves, or I like to use turbo snail shells. They will need to hide for a couple days after each molt to prevent being damaged by the others -- pretty much like any crayfish species. Also, the females with eggs should have a hiding places too.
At any rate, I find them easier to keep alive then dwarf shrimp :)


Amanda

[zwergkrebs]

@ Amanda: There is very limited information about Aegla available. If your Spanish is ok, try google. There you will also find pics of blue and orange Aeglas. I dont know whether there are more colorful species, or whether these are just mutations, the like orange clarkii or orange patzcuarensis are. Keeping and breeding them is much like keeping crays. They are absolutely non-agressive, not towards another, not towards fish or shrimps. They often share their hiding places with their fellows.

@fruitpie: Amanda answered all your questions all to well, there is little to add. Special food is not necessary, water conditions like pH are not that important. As long as they are not extreme.

[Acsuth]

Cool -- thanks for the tip...there is some information on Aeglas on a few Spanish and Portuguese sites -- there are 8+ species recorded found in the country of Chile alone. FYI: They are called "pancoras" in spanish so if you search with that word, more variety comes up.
Q: have you aquired any variety of crab who's young survive in freshwater? I know they are out there somewhere.....yet so hard to find -- like everything...patience is key LOL.


Amanda

[ganesha]

I would love to know how on earth you got to the blue color! I knew there where wild colors (although i never seen them) and i even heard about crossbreeding with the C. zempoalensis to get a stronger and more colorfull patzcuarensis but is the blue version still purely patzcuarensis?

[zwergkrebs]

Some just happened to be blue. I do not have many of them right now.

Who did this crossbreeding with zempoalensis, where is information about it. I always wondered why the orange Cambarellus are sometimes called patzcuarensis, and sometimes zempoalensis.

Do you have any sources to get other Camberellus like zempoalensis wild type etc?

[ganesha]

Are your blue ones already old enough to breed? I'm very curious if the young crayfish of blue parrents are blue too!
The story about the zempoalensis was told to me by a friend. He found someone in Holland who claims to have them but is trying for a half year now to get some.

[milalic]

zwergkrebs/Andy,

Can you e-mail me at q_low_designs at yahoo
I have a few question regarding this dwarf crays and I can not pm you.

Thanks

[zwergkrebs]

helmrf(at)aol.com

[kenny]

Beautiful ! didnt know they could be so small.

mmm.... those claws... are they safe for planted tanks ?
and they left the dwarf shrimps alone ?

[zwergkrebs]

I breed dwarf shrimp in my patzcuarensis tanks. No prob.
Cambarellus do not eat plants.

[kenny]

that's nice....
where can i get them ?
anyone selling them ?

[zwergkrebs]

Send me an email

[milalic]

do they eat shrimp larvae?

[zwergkrebs]

I don´t think so. Too small. Depends on what kind of shrimp larvae you mean. I guess Atyaephyra desmaresti?

[Steve]

I breed dwarf shrimp in my patzcuarensis tanks. No prob.
Cambarellus do not eat plants.


Do you also breed with the blue Cambarellus, i would like to get some of them.

[snuffleupagus]

So beautiful ,I want some

[Jane of Upton]

Andy, these images are gorgeous!

I really like the mottling attained in your F1 hybrid back to the wild type.

The orange coloration must be more complex than a simple recessive gene that follows Mendellian predictions, if you're getting lighter and darker orange variants. Do these special colorations still retain the striping? You mentioned the "normal" striping of an individual in one of the first picts, but its less apparent on the darker and lighter orange ones. Is this just the photography, or do they lose the striping?

Very interesting post! And your photography is stunning!
-Jane

[zwergkrebs]

Of course there is more than one gene that determines color and pattern/stripes.
But there is only one gene that makes cray is orange or brown. There are other genes / ( or maybe "factors that determine, how often a gene is used") that make a certain cray darker or lighter colored. These are the same for brown and for orange. Thus breeding a dark brown crayfish with orange crayfishes and breeding back to get orange crays again, will produce dark orange crays.
Little is know about the color of crays. As much as I know there are carotine molecules, that are covered with proteins to make astaxanthin. Depending on what proteins or how many, the color is different. To get a blue or orange crayfish you have to "alter" or even destroy the gene coding for that protein (or another gene, that processes the protein or its predecessors).
So color morphs are usually the result of the defect of one certain gene.

The orange color inherits intermediary. F1 of breeding orange with brown has a copy of the gene for both orange and brown. You can see that on the actual cray. He is neither orange or brown, but something in between. If you breed F1 with F1 they will split up 1/4 orange, 1/4 brown and 1/2 orange-brown. Just like the mendelian rules say.


There seem to be other genes, to make the stripes/ pattern lighter or darker in comparision to basic color of the rest of the cray. The crays you mentioned did not loose striping, but the color of the stripes is more like the color of the rest of the cray. Unlike others that have a light orange body and dark stripes/pattern.
The pattern for non-striped crays seems to be even more complex. No two crays look identical. Some have few dark orange dots, others are that full of dark dots, that little is seen of the light basic color.

The matter of striped or not is very easy. There are both striped and non-striped morphs for nearly any Cambarellus and maybe a lot of other crayfishes.
In all crays I breeded so far, the stripes inherit dominant. That means a striped crayfish can have either 2 copies for striped or 1 copy for striped and one for non-striped. While a non-striped cray can only have copys for non-striped. So breeding non-striped crays will always result in non-striped offspring.

[Jane of Upton]

Wow, I can tell you must take detailed notes on your breeding program!

Yes, I can see that mottled look of the hybrids - the patterns on the carapace are very attractive. Very interesting!

So if the pigment is an astaxanthin, is it affected by diet? Have you tried feeding foods with carotenoids or astaxanthins in them? It seems among marine keepers, foods with these pigments can affect the coloration in their fish and/or invertebrates, so there is a lot of "buzz" about this. I know the Red Cherry Shrimp color is affected by water parameters and maturity, not foods, but is it the same with these crays?

Wow, there is so much to learn.
-Jane

[zwergkrebs]

Thats not quite correct I think. You can affect the color of red cherry with foods. Ever tried to feed them dried "Brennnessel" (dont know what it is called in English, in Latin it should be Uticaria sp., if I remember right). Hokkaido squash should have the same effect.

Many people tried to affect the color of C. patzcuarensis, but with little success. Of course if you provide them a diet totally without carotinoids they will be white of have pale colors, like any other cray should be then.
But you cannot improve their color further (the color they get if you feed them nothing special, just normal fish food and some detruis). The rest is genetic.
Even feeding them cyclopse eeze (these little freeze-dried arctic shrimp or whatever) that have a high content of astaxanthin will have no further effect.

They might show pale colors in too bright light, on white sand and maybe under stress (but will not loose their color entirely as some shrimp do)

[Jane of Upton]

Gee, I've read several posts where folks want to feed their Red Cherry Shrimp something to help enhance their color, and are told that the food will not affect the color. Hmmm, I think I'll start feeding some steemed beets or sweet potatoe after all!

Yes, I was thinking of that Cyclop-eeze stuff and other dried foods with the xanthins and carotenoids. Some cichlid keepers I know swear by it.

That is interesting that the cray will be pale without the carotenoids. I guess it makes sense, as it would be a deficiency. Carotenoids are generally associated with the yellow-orange-red coloration, but what would happen to the "blues" if they were deficient - would they just look pale, or grey?

-Jane

[Jane of Upton]

Aha, I found a site that would translate. I found a few references just Googling that word, and was thinking a "nettle" by context. Indeed, Brennnessel is not only the name of a nice looking German Restaurant, but is also the Stinging Nettle.

1. [n] any of numerous plants having stinging hairs that cause skin irritation on contact (especially of the genus Urtica or family Urticaceae).

I've run into these plants before - they are PAINFUL! There are brittle stingers, which release Formic Acid when broken by touch. Supposedly the young plants do not have these.

You feed these to your invertebrates? Its high in iron, and the herbalism site said its indicated for blood and circulation conditions. I wonder if the iron has to do with the coloration benefits of feeding this.

-Jane

[zwergkrebs]

Yes, that could be the correct plant. You should dry them before feeding.
I dont think, its the iron, that has the color enhancing effect, but some other things it contains. It is said to have a positive effect on the health, too.
In fact some commercial fish foods contain that plant, too. Look on the ingredients table.

[Jane of Upton]

Hmm, Interesting! Yes, I'll keep an eye out for this as an ingredient in fish foods.

I don't know if I'd try "harvesting" it myself, as it can really hurt if you get the stinger in your hand.

Perhaps its available already dried, and organic, of course, to avoid pesticides. I think I've read that it can be used as a tea. This would work, right?

Thanks,
Jane

[zwergkrebs]

This would work.

[buffguynumberone]

After reading your message I was wondering if you have any crays for sale? I am currently keeping a few dwarf orange crayfish.

(stkline81@gmail.cm)

Scott

[Gabs]

Hello zwergkrebs> I found this site of a guy who sells wild caught species of fish, crayfish but i could not post the url since i'm a new user. Try searching for jonahsaquarium.

This guy sells wild caught Cambarellus shufeldtii

[zwergkrebs]

Cambarellus are not at all rare. I have those, too.
But thanks for your help anyway.