Spirulina

[stafineo]

i got this spirulina froma a farmacy shop,i tryed it with my red cherrys and it was ok,what about for other shrimps?



Spirulina Pacifica® Typical Analysis
(Typical Analysis per 3 grams)

100% Pure All Natural Hawaiian Spirulina Powder

GENERAL COMPOSITION
Protein56-62%
Carbohydrates17-25%
Lipids4-6%
Minerals8-13%
Moisture 3-6%

VITAMINS AND ENZYMES
Vitamin A (as Beta-Carotene)11,250 IU
Vitamin B1 (Thiamine)75 mcg
Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin)110 mcg
Vitamin B3 (Niacin)450 mcg
Vitamin B615 mcg
Vitamin B12 (Human-active)2.0 mcg
Vitamin E (d-a tocopherol)105 mcg
Inositol1.7 mg
Biotin0.8 mcg
Folic Acid4.5 mcg
Pantothenic Acid4.5 mcg
Superoxide dismutase - (S.O.D.)*2250 units
*Antioxidant enzyme activity

CAROTENOIDS / PHYTONUTRIENTS
Beta-carotene 9-cis1.07 mg
Beta-carotene 13-cis0.34 mg
Beta-carotene 15-cis0.08 mg
Beta-carotene all-trans5.25 mg
Zeaxanthin3.0 mg
Total carotenoids**13 mg
Chlorophyll24 mg
Phycocyanin-crude360 mg
C-Phycocyanin165 mg
**Includes b cryptoxanthin echinenone & others

MINERALS
Calcium 14 mg
Magnesium 23 mg
Iron 3 mg
Phosphorus 30 mg
Potassium 56 mg
Sodium 42 mcg
Manganese 96 mcg
Zinc 81 mcg
Boron 90 mcg
Copper 21 mcg
Molybdenum 12 mg
Selenium 1.0 mcg

FATTY ACIDS
Omega 6 Family
Gamma Linolenic (GLA)28 mg
Linoleic28 mg
Others
Palmitic 61 mg
Oleic 9.9 mg
Palmitoleic4.2 mg
Stearic2.5 mg
Eicosatrienoic 0.6 mg
Myristic0.4 mg
Margaric0.4 mg
Margaroleic0.4 mg
Myristoleic 0.3 mg
Eicosadienoic 0.3 mg
Arachidonic 0.2 mg

[MyShrimps]

Hi,

I also feed Spirulina to my shrimps, not every day but quite regularly. Especially if there are lots of little shrimplets, the Spirulina powder seems to be quite a good food. You only have to be sure that it is 100% pure Spirulina.

I either mix the powder with a bit of water and then simply pour the mixture into the tank or I mix the powder with other food and dry it to make Spirulina chips which can be keept for several weeks before feeding.


Bye,

Peter

[TitoC]

wow,all the ingredients in so much detail. If only we would know what the nutritional needs of dwarf shrimp are, he?
The only things I know:
- spirulina is a marine alga
- rich in protein
- hyped as a cure for everything, even for human consumption
- not really the favorite food of my crystal shrimp

the first 2 points tell me that spirulina can not be the main food in the diet of dwarf shrimp, as it might not be adequate for fresh water shrimp (too much salt etc.) but more importantly, I have been warned not to feed too much protein to my crs and cbs.

[MyShrimps]

Hi Titoc,

that Spirulina is not a marine alga. It occurs naturally in lakes (not the sea!) with high concentrations of carbonate and bicarbonate. The water there usually has a very high pH level. I think I somewhere read about pH 8 to 11, but I'm not sure.
The algea themselves contain much minerals but not much salt, so that should not be the main problem.

You are right Spirulina contains a lot of protein. But as far as I know there is a difference in protein from animals and protein from plants. Protein from animals seems to be more dangerous for shrimps than the other one. Algae belong to the natural food of shrimps and not only Spirulina but also many other algae (Chlorella for example, which I also sometimes feed) contain a lot of protein, too. So I think that kind of protein which is contained in Algae should not be too dangerous for shrimps.

I personally have not noticed any negative effects caused by feeding Spirulina yet. But, as I wrote, I don't feed it every day. My crs and cbs like Spirulina. Especially the self made Spirulina chips seem to taste very good but they also like the Spirulina powder.

I agree with you that it might not be good to feed Spirulina as the main food but in my opinion a bit Spirulina togehter with a good mixture of other kind of food will be healthy for the shrimps.

Bye,

Peter

[Frank]

My shrimps don´t like Chlorella very much.
The important thing is to feed different food and I also think that there´s a difference between protein from meat or plants.
Usually I don´t feed pure Spirulina but I take care about this ingredient in the food.

[TitoC]

that Spirulina is not a marine alga. It occurs naturally in lakes (not the sea!)

:huh: The Spirulina platensis we did research on was a marine alga. In fact, spirulina are cyanobacteria, but probably different species can occur at a variety of salinities. It is also grown a lot in aquaculture. And a lot of stories are invented about it.


You are right Spirulina contains a lot of protein. But as far as I know there is a difference in protein from animals and protein from plants. Protein from animals seems to be more dangerous for shrimps than the other one. Algae belong to the natural food of shrimps and not only Spirulina but also many other algae (Chlorella for example, which I also sometimes feed) contain a lot of protein, too. So I think that kind of protein which is contained in Algae should not be too dangerous for shrimps.
Peter

What you are referring to here, is the digestibility of the protein. It's true that overall, animal protein is much more digestible than vegetable. The marketeers of Spirulina make it sound that it is almost as good as animal sources though. I don't believe that, but as its a 'soft' microalga/bacterium, I do assume that it is quite easy to digest for the shrimp. Unlike diatoms or macroalgae and plants, which contain a lot more fibers and less digestible protein. Many crustaceans still eat this, but use bacterial digestion for that.
The thing is we don't know how much fiber and how much protein our shrimp need, let alone aminoacid composition etc.... It's not because something sounds as a natural food source, that it really is for a certain species of shrimp. I discovered for instance that my crystal red shrimp like to eat fungus growing on wood! And sometimes they ignore whatever I give, but still sift through detritus and old shit. Maybe that's their real diet in the wild?
So for now, it does seem to be the best strategy to feed a variety of food. Personally, I feed vegetables and commercial shrimp feed. The latter you can assume that the producers put as little expensive protein as possible :D

[MyShrimps]

Hi TitoC,


:huh: The Spirulina platensis we did research on was a marine alga. In fact, spirulina are cyanobacteria, but probably different species can occur at a variety of salinities. It is also grown a lot in aquaculture. And a lot of stories are invented about it.
As far as I know Spirulina platensis (that's the kind of Spirulina which is sold in pharmacies, even if they give them other names) cannot grow well in salt water with the high salinity of the sea. It grows quite well in brackish water with a salinity of about 15 to 30 0/00 but if the salinity is too high, then S. platensis doesn't multiply any more.
That at least was the information I got when I once wanted to grow my own Spirulina to feed my brine shrimps and fairy shrimps. (No, I haven't grown Spirulina yet)
But maybe there are different strains of Spirulina and some of them can live in water with higher salinity than others. So probably we both are right. :D
And you are absolutely right, most of the sold Spirulina is coming from artificial aquaculture today und a lot of stories are invented about it to increase the selling rate. It's a business like many others. :rolleyes:


What you are referring to here, is the digestibility of the protein.
No, that's not the main aspect that I mean. There are lots of different proteins and there seems to be quite a big difference between animal proteins and plant proteins. For example several scientists tested the effect on rats. Some rats only got animal proteins and the others got the same ammount but only plant proteins. The group fed with animal proteins grew much faster and at first it was published that animal proteins are much better than plant proteins. Later they noticed that the rats fed with plant proteins were much healthier and lived much longer than the others. Don't know if it's the same with our little "water rats" (= shrimps :joking:) but I really think so.


I discovered for instance that my crystal red shrimp like to eat fungus growing on wood! And sometimes they ignore whatever I give, but still sift through detritus and old shit. Maybe that's their real diet in the wild?
I totally agree with that. Detritus including the microorganisms in it, old leaves and algae seem to be the natural diet for most kind of dwarf shrimps.

Bye,

Peter

[Frank]

The problem with protein from meat is that the shrimps grow very fast. That seems to be good at first view but there´s the problem with molting. Inverts grow after molting while the shell is still soft. They can get problems when the growth is too fast.

[stafineo]

The problem with protein from meat is that the shrimps grow very fast. That seems to be good at first view but there´s the problem with molting. Inverts grow after molting while the shell is still soft. They can get problems when the growth is too fast.

I think that you are right,i know few breeders that feed shrimps and crays with live frozen food just to get them to the selling size as quickly as posible.As for molting you are right once again animal proteins are the real building blocks for growth,bacuse in tested above 3g spirulina has much more protein than 3g of any animal food source.
Now you all are going to say that i`m crayz-why then none of the sport bodybuilders dont use plant proteins instead they fill them selves with animal proteins,-have a friend who is ex bodybuilder and now he is a personal trainer and i have seen what to much animal protein can do to the skin breaking,tearing,bleading,...(the same can be with the shrimps and overfeeding with animal proteins,i Have a couple CPO at home and in the begining they wouldn`t eat anything but frozen bloodworms.)
I fed my shrimps more with spirulina wafers,this farmacy spirulina i used on baby shrimps as a micro food because it dissolves completly just as powder,in a cup of water i get totaly blue mix of spirulina and then i just put few drops over the thickest moss and the joug come to feed,for adults i give undisolved tablet twice a week.

[fishgeek]

too much ancedotal conjecture

nutritional analysis should be based on dry matter basis, therefore protein percentage when expressed as DM basis in animal or plant is accurately comparable
protein is protein is protein, whether it be animal or plant in origin...
the amino acids that make up the proteins can be different ratio in certain proteins

cyanbacter is not spirulina, cyanobacter are bacteria that contain chlorophyll and can utilise sunlight for energy, dont be confused by common names, yes they are both known as blue green algae

your body builder friends problems dont stem from too much protein, maybe an imbalanced diet, maybe rapid growth(stretch marks associated with adolescent growth spurts, pregnanact) or possibly even from anabolic drug usage

andrew

[stafineo]

too much ancedotal conjecture

nutritional analysis should be based on dry matter basis, therefore protein percentage when expressed as DM basis in animal or plant is accurately comparable
protein is protein is protein, whether it be animal or plant in origin...
the amino acids that make up the proteins can be different ratio in certain proteins

cyanbacter is not spirulina, cyanobacter are bacteria that contain chlorophyll and can utilise sunlight for energy, dont be confused by common names, yes they are both known as blue green algae

your body builder friends problems dont stem from too much protein, maybe an imbalanced diet, maybe rapid growth(stretch marks associated with adolescent growth spurts, pregnanact) or possibly even from anabolic drug usage

andrew

Problem came from aminoacids and growth hormons which are also used for animal rapid growth.But he made his diploma in sport nutrition so he is now writing diets for others,and he has some bad expirience as a leson.But now i`m totaly of topic,thanks for the info!

Ernest

[TitoC]

too much wrong information



nutritional analysis should be based on dry matter basis, therefore protein percentage when expressed as DM basis in animal or plant is accurately comparable

yes, to compare on basis of dry mass is a start, but does not explain the whole difference in protein quantity and quality.



protein is protein is protein, whether it be animal or plant in origin...

very much not so, I'm afraid. That's why there is such an emphasis on having animal protein in the diet of humans. One can survive without animal protein, but then the person has to really work on the diet.



the amino acids that make up the proteins can be different ratio in certain proteins

here you actually already give part of the explanation. Certain proteins just don't supply the essential amino acids certain animals need. Even if they contain some, but the ratio is off, it will cause deficiencies and disbalance in the metabolism. For instance in a recent study (Hernandez et al 2008) on penaeid shrimp, methionine deficiency (amongst others) occured when fish meal was replaced with protein from pork. This resulted in less than optimal growth. These deficiencies of essential amino acids are especially limiting for growing/laying animals. On top of that, indegistible/ash components can lower the total digetibility of the protein even more. Please look up on this, and on digestibility of protein.



cyanbacter is not spirulina, cyanobacter are bacteria that contain chlorophyll and can utilise sunlight for energy, dont be confused by common names, yes they are both known as blue green algae

Yes, but how come I get 200 finds in Web of knowledge and 71 in Pubmed with "cyanobacterium spirulina platensis" ?
"Co2+, Cu2+, and Zn2+ accumulation by cyanobacterium Spirulina platensis."
"The impact of physical stresses on the growth of cyanobacterium Spirulina platensis-S5." And these are papers from 2006 and 2004, so a recent name change would have been very recent then..
Just type cyanobacterium in google images and then spirulina. The only confusion is that Spirulina is a species, the other is the group name.



your body builder friends problems dont stem from too much protein, maybe an imbalanced diet, maybe rapid growth(stretch marks associated with adolescent growth spurts, pregnanact) or possibly even from anabolic drug usage

the problem is the use of hormones and too intensive training. The supplement of aminoacids (especially those essential for muscle) however allows the accumulation of abnormal amounts of muscle in short period. Too fast for the skin to keep up. If it wouldn't be for the food supplements (aminoacids which mostly resemble the composition of muscle, so cfr. animal protein and aminoacid derivates like creatine for extra energy in muscles), bodybuilders would not be able to swell so much/so fast and stay bloated. If they stop the supplements, the muscles would break down due to lack of building blocks for the turn-over metabolism.
This proves again the difference in proteins. Just try to become the first vegetarian body-builder!

You were right Andrew, about the anecdotal noise, but next time do your homework when I'm around. We already get enough disinformation. Educated guesses are always welcome, but then don't make it sound like the are 'the truth'.

Regards,

Mathias

[MyShrimps]

Hi,

the correct classification of Spirulina is quite difficult because it has changed several times in the past.
First it was thought to be blue-green algae. Later it was classified as cyanobacteria. And that should still be the classification today.
It is usually sold as algae and not as bacteria but I think that is only because people won't want to eat bacteria. ;)
But now I got the information that the kind of Spirulina which is used as food for humans and animals doesn't belong to the genus Spirulina any more but to the genus Arthrospira. :huh:
Don't know if that is the common classification at the moment.
But no matter if genus Spirulina or Arthrospira, I think it should still belong to the Phylum cyanobacteria - at least until the next change of the classification.

Peter

[fishgeek]

Mathias , i am not sure if methionine was chosen as it is an essential amino acid in human diet or just by chance

certainly if it is because it cant be synthesised by man that doesnt neccesarily mean that shrimp need it as essential
metabolic pathways differ amongst animals and certainly i am not aware that shrim nutrition is that well understood as yet.. maybe aqquaculture has begun to investigate for larger farmed prawn etc which would be a closer approximation than other nutritional metabolism.. maybe with synthetic methionine or essentials added, do you know that methionine is essential in shrimp

in fact i was under the impression that aquaculture was looking at plant protein as a sustainable source of feed instead of animal protein..

i dont understand shrimp protein metabolism, and all i was against was the statement that "too much protein causes problems" maybe it does maybe it doesnt ... it hasnt been my experience and i haven't found any refrenced readings to suggest it does... i dont mean to say that that makes it true

as for spirulina and cyanobacter.. i just remember microscopy and they are not looking the same to me when magnified.. i havent had much to do with cytology of plants or bacteria since the early nineties so much could have changed though certainly not the cell structures , nor health food claims;)


regard andrew

[MyShrimps]

Hi,

I tried to find out why today Spirulina is classed with cyanobacteria and not algae any more. The rason is that the cells don't have a real nucleus and the cells of algae have a nucleus.
I know, that information is not really important and a bit off topic, but maybe it's not only me who is interested in this theme because algae (and cyanobacteria) might be an important source of food for people in the future.
And maybe they will help to reduce the carbon dioxide in our atmosphere, too.
So it's quite an interesting theme for me.

In fact it doesn't matter if with or without a nucleus, my shrimps like Spirulina very much. But I also tasted Spirulina and Chlorella myself and I personally think they both taste awfull. :p

Bye

Peter

[turtles808]

Just curious, how much are you paying for the powder over there?

This is from their website:
Spirulina Pacifica is a specially bred strain of the edible microalgae Spirulina platensis. It is cultured in shallow, open ponds (approximately 20 cm deep) adjacent to the Pacific Ocean. A combination of fresh water and supplemental deep ocean water is used to fill the ponds. The other major components required for growing Spirulina Pacifica are food-grade baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) and carbon dioxide. Food grade fertilizers are used and the deep sea water is added as a rich source of minerals and trace elements. Paddle wheels agitate the water, ensuring even exposure of the algae to the sun for optimal growth and nutritional value.

[stafineo]

Just curious, how much are you paying for the powder over there?

This is from their website:
Spirulina Pacifica is a specially bred strain of the edible microalgae Spirulina platensis. It is cultured in shallow, open ponds (approximately 20 cm deep) adjacent to the Pacific Ocean. A combination of fresh water and supplemental deep ocean water is used to fill the ponds. The other major components required for growing Spirulina Pacifica are food-grade baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) and carbon dioxide. Food grade fertilizers are used and the deep sea water is added as a rich source of minerals and trace elements. Paddle wheels agitate the water, ensuring even exposure of the algae to the sun for optimal growth and nutritional value.

I payed 11€/16.5$ for a bottle 100 tablets-500mg.In Austria i buy tablets with only 30-36% spirulina 1o-12€/kg

[TitoC]

Mathias , i am not sure if methionine was chosen as it is an essential amino acid in human diet or just by chance. certainly if it is because it cant be synthesised by man that doesnt neccesarily mean that shrimp need it as essential. metabolic pathways differ amongst animals and certainly i am not aware that shrim nutrition is that well understood as yet..maybe aqquaculture has begun to investigate for larger farmed prawn etc which would be a closer approximation than other nutritional metabolism.. maybe with synthetic methionine or essentials added, do you know that methionine is essential in shrimp

The EAA's of penaeid shrimp have been tested by several independant studies, are now pretty well-defined: lysine, arginine, methionine, threonine, histidine, isoleucine, leucine, valine, phenylalanine and tryptophan. See Fox et al 2006 http://w3.dsi.uanl.mx/publicaciones/maricultura/viii/pdf/13Fox.pdf
They say that indeed, the knowledge is still not good, but methionine clearly gets special attention.
also see http://books.google.be/books?hl=en&lr=&id=NDEsPP30bfwC&oi=fnd&pg=PA60&dq=%22too+much+protein%22+shrimp&ots=aGRq-Qaad6&sig=FFzaW9zG20qLeqx9ARE15aGj440#PPP1,M1


in fact i was under the impression that aquaculture was looking at plant protein as a sustainable source of feed instead of animal protein..

This exactly, exactly!, because of the difference in digestibility and biological availability of different protein sources and feeds. Up to today, it is impossible to raise penaeid shrimp without fish meal (or other high quality animal proteins). Replacing it with all plant protein, which in theory should cover the needs, does not work because of practical reasons. The structure is completely different and the shrimp's simple digestion does not get all the protein out = lower digestibility. Farmers want to use the cheaper protein from plants, but are stuck with the reality that shrimp digest expensive animal protein much better.
Of course, most our hobby shrimp are herbivorous, so we could expect them to be able to deal with plant proteins better. But I have to cook the vegetables for them (breaking down much of the structure, releasing the starch etc.) before they even start to eat them. Maybe they are really detrivorous and they let bacteria do the 'cooking' for them?


i dont understand shrimp protein metabolism, and all i was against was the statement that "too much protein causes problems" maybe it does maybe it doesnt ... it hasnt been my experience and i haven't found any refrenced readings to suggest it does... i dont mean to say that that makes it true

I don't need a reference to accept the fact that feeding high protein (fish) food to non-carnivorous creatures causes problems. I have seen the X-rays of a goat fed meat its whole (short) life, and know enough.
Maybe the problem is not so much the excess protein. Shrimp will just use it as energy or excrete it. Maybe the problem is what is lacking. A correct Ca : P ratio for instance. Vitamins, fibers ...
Those stories about 'over-growing' shrimp sound just the same as those about big dog breeds being fed too much protein when they grow up.


as for spirulina and cyanobacter.. i just remember microscopy and they are not looking the same to me when magnified.. i havent had much to do with cytology of plants or bacteria since the early nineties so much could have changed though certainly not the cell structures , nor health food claims;)

from a 3,5 seconds search on taxonomy in www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/ :
Spirulina, genus, cyanobacteria
Arthrospira maxima, species, cyanobacteria

but, by all means Andrew, keep on rocking in the free world

[fishgeek]

thanks for the education on spirulina reclassification, mathias and my shrimp i have learnt more than my one new thing for the day

what field of science do you work in
the goat radiography example is certainly a ca:po4 balance issue or maybe some vit D analogue rather than simply animal versus plant

i thought the search for plant based protein was economy of scales ie much easier to grow a few kilos of beans than a few kilos of fish for the protein source of farmed fish...
maybe this is getting off topic

andrew

[TitoC]

thanks for the education on spirulina reclassification, mathias and my shrimp i have learnt more than my one new thing for the day

I don't think it has been re-classified. The taxonomy of all organisms is just out there on the net.


what field of science do you work in
the goat radiography example is certainly a ca : po4 balance issue or maybe some vit D analogue rather than simply animal versus plant

yes, the malformation of the bones was due to the Ca : P ratio, but the goat died because of infections due to the malnutrition.
I'm a veterinarian and I work on a Ph.D. project about viral disease in penaeid shrimp.


i thought the search for plant based protein was economy of scales ie much easier to grow a few kilos of beans than a few kilos of fish for the protein source of farmed fish...

correct, and if there would be a plant with the same digestibilty and EAA composition as fish / shrimp meal, then it could (and will!) replace the animal ingredients in the food. But on top of that, we haven't even discussed about the requirements for lipids (especially HUFA's !), vitamins and minerals...
Many people are looking for a way out of this dependance. But for the broodstock of penaeid shrimp for instance, there is still a need for very expensive fresh sea food and polychaetes to have real good results in the breeding. The shrimp just can't digest plants that well, and the performance suffers. Even if the plants theoretically cover the needs, chances are, the shrimp will not get everything out before it leaves the gut.

That's how we can stay on topic :), and point out that it's good to cook vegetables when you feed them. Maybe even cook the spirulina?
Recently, I have started to suspect that many of the problems reported about crystal shrimp could have a nutritional cause. Especially in overcrowded tanks, not all the shrimp could be getting what they need.

[fishgeek]

nutrition and habitat are the most likely reasons for ill health in most things

i too am a vet though just routine small animal
nice to meet you

[TitoC]

same here. It's good to let the thoughts collide with some scientific knowledge on the background.

By the way, I found the first vegetarian bodybuilder: living proof of the difference in protein quality (and he still eats eggs and milk ;)

(don't worry guys, I'll throw this of later..)