Difference between BumbleBee and New Bee/bee

[ralp]

Hi everybody,

i just wonder: What is the difference between these shrimps? Is there a simple way to check it or do you have to use a microscope?

Regards. Ralp

[retardo]

Ralp, check out the Species pages. I believe it goes into a little more detail about the differences and distinguishing features. If you have additional questions not already covered, the folks here will be more than glad to help.

[ralp]

Thanks retardo, I did before posting. But iam still confused, because i never heard (read) about the new bee in Germany or Sweden. I bought some bumblebee two weeks ago in Germany. According to the speciesdescription at this site - i got some new bee. Their heads are white. Thats why i wonder if there is another difference?

Regards. Ralp

[Robert]

Hi Ralf,
in Germany both species are sold as "Hummelgarnelen" (bumblebee shrimps). They don't differentiate the species, even a famous German website wasn't able yet to see the difference and so they show both species under the same name.
Take a look on the forebody, the stripe pattern is different. The pictures in the species section show it clearly. The second brown/black stripe is also different. The second brown/black stripe of the new bee shrimps is often pointed or V-shape towards the pleopods ("swimming legs") while the one of the bumblebee shrimp has not such a characteristic shape.
You can get real bumblebee shrimps too in Germany but I guess it would be best to choose them yourself instead of ordering them from any hobbiest or let you show a picture at first. Sometimes they are even sold in LFSs.

Best regards

Robert

[ralp]

Thanks Robert. That was the answer i was waiting for. :D

Regards. Ralf

[Pconnieae]

Hi all,


Take a look on the forebody, the stripe pattern is different. The pictures in the species section show it clearly. The second brown/black stripe is also different. The second brown/black stripe of the new bee shrimps is often pointed or V-shape towards the pleopods ("swimming legs") while the one of the bumblebee shrimp has not such a characteristic shape.

I received a few shrimps from Germany. But in spite of your description of the differences between bumble bee shrimps and new bee shrimps I am not sure wether my shrimps are new bee shrimps or bumble bee shrimps :rolleyes: . Can you help me to identify them. They are exactly the same as here (http://www.wirbellose.de/pics/hummel9.jpg) .

[simcb]

Hi all,



I received a few shrimps from Germany. But in spite of your description of the differences between bumble bee shrimps and new bee shrimps I am not sure wether my shrimps are new bee shrimps or bumble bee shrimps :rolleyes: . Can you help me to identify them. They are exactly the same as here (http://www.wirbellose.de/pics/hummel9.jpg) .

Hi,

yours looks like a new bee to me can tell from The "M" or "V" on the head feature near the eyes. Usually bumble bee shrimps dont have them.

[retardo]

I just read what you were asking again...

There are several distinctions here, bee shrimp, new bee shrimp, and bumblebee.

Bee and new bee are related species... the new bee are the ones you see with black and white stripes and are selectively bred to exhibit these traits. The bee shrimp (also called a diamond), on the other hand, is the wild caught bee shrimp as seen in the species pages.

Bumblebee shrimp are similar in color to the new bee shrimp. Both have black and white stripes. The distinction between the two can be made by the color of the beginning stripe on the head of the shrimp. New bee starts with a white stripe, while the bumblebee starts with the black stripe. CRS are derived from bee shrimp (diamond) and will also have a white stripe as the beginning stripe on its head.

Hopefully, I didn't add any confusion to this topic. If I've misstated anything here, please correct me.

[silane]

Let me say something about my understanding of new bee/bee and bumblebee, the terms bee shrimps and bumlebee is used to differentiate 2 categories (I don't use the word species here) that can be recognised by the first bar color as mentioned by members above.

Except bee/diamond shrimp is ID properly among the hobbyists within the category of bee shrimp, I guess because of its special relationship with CRS. Within the category of bee shrimps, there are many variations, often, the bar size varies, intensity/hue/color (dark brown/black) of the bars varies. During my last trip to China, I bought 3 kinds of bee, 2 kinds were collected in proximity, 2 different creeks, as I was told by seller, but the bars varies, they were placed in different tank during the sales. And the third kind is Diamond/Bee shrimp. I was looking for another kind of new bee/bee shrimp, they have extremely white and extremely black bars, unforunately, they have not appear in the market for a long time, I hope not they are extincted due to heavy collection. :(

I have yet to pay much attention to bumblebee, but I guess they comes in different variations too.

Hope what I said has not add into any confusion. :D

[Robert]

Hi all,



I received a few shrimps from Germany. But in spite of your description of the differences between bumble bee shrimps and new bee shrimps I am not sure wether my shrimps are new bee shrimps or bumble bee shrimps :rolleyes: . Can you help me to identify them. They are exactly the same as here (http://www.wirbellose.de/pics/hummel9.jpg) .

Hi Huy,
this is the shrimp which we actually call "bumblebee shrimp" here in Europe. On the picture they look a bit stressed but you can clearly see the difference tonew bee shrimps if you take closer look. It is the same species like I described and showed as bumblebee shrimp in the species section. The marking on the forebody is typical for them. It could vary a bit, sometimes it is just a short stripe, sometimes it is a long one or even shaped like a "M" .

Best regards

Robert

[GunmetalBlue]

Hi - not to add to the continuing confusion but in the USA, my current understanding of the shrimp that's been assigned the name "New Bee" (in other countries) is that it is a variety of the Bumblebee, and not the Bee. That might be why some people see a New Bee and feel it looks like a Bumblebee - to my current understanding, it is a Bumblebee.

-GB

[silane]

ok...... which shrimp is Bee referring to in USA?

[GunmetalBlue]

The same as what's referred to the Bee shrimp here:
http://www.shrimpnow.com/modules.php?name=Content&file=viewarticle&id=2

-GB

[retardo]

Bumblebees and Bees (New Bee, Bee, Diamond, CRS) are from different families (genus?). They are not derived from the same line. Bee shrimp are bred from the same line and will breed with each other. Bumblebees and Bees, however, cannot and will not breed with each other.

[GunmetalBlue]

The problem is that the "New Bee" if it was named at all, was unfortunately not named "New Bumblebee" instead; it would have made things less confusing. The problem lies with the fact that it is misnamed, and thus the confusion, for me, anyway. Unfortunately scientific names are unavailable for the Bumblebee and the New Bee (which is actually a Bumblebee), but neither are in the serrata group.

CRS (which are basically selectively bred red color mutation of Bees), Bees, and I think also Tigers are from the serrata group. Bumblebee (and that includes the kind that start with the light stripe which some countries are referring to as New Bee are from a different group and are a separate species from the CRS and Bees.

-GB

[retardo]

Unfortunately scientific names are unavailable for the Bumblebee and the New Bee (which is actually a Bumblebee), but neither are in the serrata group.


HUH? :huh: :p "New Bee" from anything I've read is *not* a Bumblebee. New Bee is part of the Caridina family, as are CRS, Diamond Bee, and Tiger. Bumblebees are from a totally different family. It may be helpful if you provide pictures/links of which are which. You've got me totally confused. lol What are your sources?

[GunmetalBlue]

Just to let you know, Bumblebees are in the Caridina family too. They are Caridina sp. "Bumblebee." There are actually many, many Caridina species that are not even remotely similar looking nor have the same reproductive situation, such as the Caridina gracilirostris (Red Nose).
http://www.shrimpnow.com/modules.php?name=Content&file=viewarticle&id=22

If you look back at what Robert was saying earlier:


in Germany both species are sold as "Hummelgarnelen" (bumblebee shrimps). They don't differentiate the species, even a famous German website wasn't able yet to see the difference and so they show both species under the same name.

He is supporting what I am talking about concerning what some countries call "New Bee" is not recognized, since they feel it is a Bumblebee, although he doesn't seem to agree with it (strange he doesn't agree with his own country's ID :D ).

I was very confused at first too until I recognized that the common names are simply common names which unfortunately can sometimes be both meaningless and confusing, since any common name can be given to any species. Now you don't necessarily have to agree with me with that what is called a "New Bee" is simply a variety of Bumblebee. But try for a moment to get past the common name. For unfortunately, the fact the it has the word "Bee" in "New Bee" makes it difficult for people to accept it is anything other than a Bee.

So try for a moment to forget it is being called a "New Bee," and try to forget for a moment being stuck on the idea that ALL Bumblebees MUST start with a dark stripe; hopefully that will help you understand what I'm talking about. That some places in Germany and some of us in the USA feel that what is being called a "New Bee" is really a variety of Bumblebee.

Very interesting topic BTW.

-GB

[retardo]

You're absolutely right. Common names are an extremely hard way to determine the correct species/genus/family/whatever.

Considering that the shrimp hobby is only really getting started, it's hard to know what is what, except for the common ones (such as Amano/Yamato shrimp). I'm sure there are new shrimp being discovered/reclassified on a regular basis.

I'm curious as to where you found info on the "bumblebee" being part of Caridina. I've yet to come across any info that states such. I ask simply because if that is truly the case, the so-called bumblebee would x-breed with (here we go with common names again) bees, new bees, tiger, etc. Anecdotal evidence speaks otherwise.

[gr81]

I saw import from India of BB and there were some NB too. So how can I even buy right ones if importers mixes diferent species. I also bought some Green babulties and some of them were something like blue tigers with reduced black stripes. It's really hard do buy something correct here.

[GunmetalBlue]

Hi Retardo, I gave you the link to Bumblebee shrimp in my earlier reply. The term "Caridina" is the big kahuna part of the name where, as stated earlier, many different species reside under. If you haven't done so recently, try clicking at the species section of this forum. You'll see a whole host of species that reside under the name Caridina. I could give you outside links supporting this info but I respect this forum's general policy to refrain; besides, the species page here should be ample.

Where the differentiation begins is whether it is for example, "Caridina japonica" or "Caridina sp. Bumblebee." Because many of these species fall under the umbrella of Caridina, in my earlier post I took the time to state that CRS, Bee and Tiger are in the serrata group, which makes them closely related, whereas Bumblebee and its different varieties are NOT in the serrata group. Hopefully that makes more sense.

For people only marginally interested or still confused, just know that:

In some circles the shrimp that starts with the light stripe but is not a Bee has been designated the name New Bee.

In other circles, this same said shrimp that starts with the light stripe is considered a Bumblebee and is given no special name other than referred to as the variety of Bumblebee that starts with the light stripe. These two color varieties of Bumblebees should still be kept separate though to ensure their uniqueness.

I saw this thread when it first came out and I couldn't make hide nor hair of it. It was only when I realized that the "New Bee" was referring to what I know as the Bumblebee that starts with the light stripe (same shrimp, but had been given different names in different circles), that I could understand.

-GB

[retardo]

I will simply agree to disagree with you and leave it at that. :cool:

[GunmetalBlue]

Retardo, I say this humbly with all due respect, my focus here isn't to change your mind about anything nor bug you, I apologise if you thought otherwise - I'm perfectly fine with your disagreeing :) . However, there were many issues brought up, so may I at least know what it is that you're disagreeing with (but it's cool if you don't want to reply). That you don't feel Bumblebees are under the umbrella of Caridina? That there exists opposing naming conventions or lack thereof of the so called "New Bee?"

Or simply that you don't feel the "New Bee" is a really a variety of the Bumblebee? This last part I can't prove because I am not a scientist and haven't studied them under the microscope and cross referenced them to journals that describe them. So in that vein, I kept my focus on increasing awareness that differing opinions do exist as to whether the so-called "New Bee" are more related to the Bumblebee or the Bee, rather than saying the answer is one way or the other. This way, other people get a chance to understand what the confusion is about and why this thread exists in the first place.

I personally always want to know more about things, discussion helps bring out more info to think about.

Gr81, yes I agree, you do have to be careful when trying to obtain shrimp. Many people report that they got something other than what they sent for. :p So buyers do need to be aware and choose their suppliers carefully if you are trying to obtain a specific kind of shrimp.

-GB

[silane]

GB,

Even amoung bee or bumblebee, there are can look different when they are collect from different creek. Some speciments bumblebee has first white line is straight, some is V and some is W, I am not sure if they are the same species at all, hope scientist will figure it out soon. The confusion will be further added if one name "new bee" or "bumble bee" is currently used to call all the different speices that look alike.

[GunmetalBlue]

Fruitpie, I definitely agree there are quite a lot of variety in patterns/coloration. Out of the handful of Bumblebees I've had so far, with those alone I've recognized what seem to be 4 different pattern and/or color variations. Mine are definitely Bumblebees though in that they start with the conventional dark stripe - not that pattern/color are always a dependable way to tell, as we have seen :p .

Do you by any chance know why Bee shrimp are rarely exported to the USA? We have mostly Bumblebees available; it's rare for hobbyists to have Bees here. Are Bees readily available where you are? And yes, I've seen a huge variety of patterns and variations (through pictures) on Bees as well.

-GB

[silane]

GB,

I have noticed that Bee shrimps (in Singapore's term) appearing in our market is becoming rare, I hope it is a price and not a supply issue. Over here, price is alway a issue, people want the cheapest bee or shrimp with stripes, they dont care about the color.

For wild diamond shrimp, again in our term (your term as bee shrimp), it has never reach our LFS. All of them are refined type that keep with CRS. Some hobbyists have wild diamond, they have to bring in themselve. My understanding is there is only one collection location found in Hong Kong, spoken to a collector, each time, they can collect about 700 pieces and that basically "empty" the creek, they have to come back again a few months later for it. In Japan, wild diamond shrimp is highly sought and also in Hong Kong and Taiwan because of its relationship with CRS. And that may explain why they never reach USA.

Whenever I see bee look-alike shrimp now in LFSs, they are all bumlebee look alike.

Years back, we could find very nice bee shrimps (again in our term, what do you call bee shrimp over there? :D), the price is high, but worth the money,the white was thick, so as the black. But now, all we can find is color fading bumblebee shrimps.