Crystal Red Shrimp + Crystal Red Shrimp = CRS/Diamonds?

[amidala]

Hi everyone! :smile:

I've just started keeping these lovely shrimps and have a query where breeding is concerned: will a pure red crystal red shrimp tank result in both red and diamond shrimplets? Or will the baby shrimps all be red like their parents?

Would appreciate some ideas / reference materials on this topic, thanks!

Warmest regards,
:curtain: amidala

P/S: Cool emoticons, by the way! I'm so spoilt for choice! :angel:

[kross]

Welcome to the forum. I looking for an answer to this too.... lol

[silane]

Hi,
let:

b be red recessive
B be black dominant (diamond/bee shrimp)

When you cross:

Rxb=Bb+Bb+Bb+Bb -> all are black

Bbxb=bb+Bb -> 50% are black, 50% are red

bxb=bb+bb+bb+bb -> all are red

Bb still appears as black because this individual has only one recessive allel but both recessive allel are necessary to show the red phenotype.

So you question, does crystal red shrimp cross crystal red shrimp will give diamond/bee (black), theoretically, it is not possible.

[gnatster]

I hope to understand the genetics of crystal red shrimp breeding better. I am currently in the process of setting up a crystal red shrimp breeding system and am looking for help in understand the dominate and reccessive characteristics allready identified. All 10 of my starter stock are siblings from the same brood.

Please also help me to understand what a "Diamond" is

Thanks

[retardo]

Please also help me to understand what a "Diamond" is

Thanks

ditto. i tho't i understood what it is/was, but apparently, i don't. please advise.

[john]

According to the species page on this site, a diamond shrimp is what it's called in Singapore/Taiwan/HongKong or in the US and Europe it's called a bee shrimp.In other words, for gnatster and retardo a diamond shrimp =
bee shrimp. So depending on where you're from, the same shrimp is called a different name. Hope I explained this right,
John

[silane]

Yes John, you are right. That's why I want to standardize the way to call these shrimps using:

http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189

Understand that Diamond/Bee shrimp is still rare is USA, they are more scarce then CRS, so now so-called bee shrimp is unlikely Diamond/Bee shrimp.

[crandf]

If diamond shrimps are bee shrimps, then why is bee shrimps so cheap but diamond so expensive in singapore. I've seen diamond and bee being sold in the same shop but with a significant price difference

[amidala]

Thanks for all your replies, folks. :smile: Particularly with reference to fruitpie's suggestion of the use of different terminology to differentiate the Diamond/Bee from the Bee/New Bee.

So am I right to say that if I wished to breed only CRS (i.e. only red & white banding), I should not mix the Diamond/Bee with the crystal red shrimp?

Thanks for clarifying!

[silane]

If diamond shrimps are bee shrimps, then why is bee shrimps so cheap but diamond so expensive in singapore. I've seen diamond and bee being sold in the same shop but with a significant price difference

Please read this thread for the naming convention:
http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189

Diamond/Bee does not means Diamond or Bee, nor it means diamond is bee shrimp. :)

[kross]

Ok, now I'm really confused.... lol

[simcb]

Ok, now I'm really confused.... lol

Put it simpler in this way

Lets look at these 3 types of shrimps:
(According to Asia naming convention)
related shrimps-
1. Diamond (brown/orange tint at the head and tail)
2. crystal red shrimp(genetic mutation-red pigment from diamond shrimps)

Totally unrelated but looked alike:
3. Bee shrimps(there are many unamed species)

Hopes it makes sense. :D

[silane]

So am I right to say that if I wished to breed only crystal red shrimp (i.e. only red & white banding), I should not mix the Diamond/Bee with the CRS?

Thanks for clarifying!


Yes and no.

Yes, if you want to see only crystal red shrimp (red and white) offsprings.
No, if you want to use diamond/bee shrimp to cross back to widen the genes pool.

[retardo]

ok, that clarifies things a little. my understanding was that a diamond was introduced into a breeding program of CRS for genetic diversification purposes. any offspring resulting from a diamond and high (or any grade) grade CRS can further improve the CRS line. does that make sense?

[silane]

Yes Smartdo, :D

I know some hobbyists breed CRS and Diamond for generations in the same tank, and if one want to use such Diamond/Bee to diversify such CRS genes, the effect will not be there. Should get Diamond from somewhere else.

[retardo]

thanks for the info. anyone know (or care to take a guess at) how many generations it would take before the recessive red gene that is characteristic of CRS to reappear if a diamond were introduced? that is, how do we get the desired effect?

fruitpie, what do you mean when you say get the diamond from somewhere else? you mean from another breeder?

[silane]

I heard it takes 6 or 7 generations to get defective genes, I have not breed to that many generations and have been diversifying the genes via various sources including wild diamond, so I can;t be sure 6 or 7 is the figure. I was able to get some very nice diamond offspring from wild ugly diamond, will take pic when I have the time.

Yeah, somewhere else means another breeder (just make sure the breeder you get from did not get from the same breeder :D ).

[Robert]

Hi,
to inbreed shrimps for at least 6 generations is no problem. I did it myself with my green shrimps and got the first problems in the 7th generation. It could be the genes or the water conditions (it was last summer and we get sometimes bad water in summer, my guppies often also get problems in this time).

My CR are now the 5th generation of pure inbreeding and there are no problems yet. You can always try to outcross them to other CRS line from other breeders because a outcross to diamond would mean to loose the red phenotype in the next generation and even in the F2 they don't really follow Mendel's laws. The percentage of CRS is smaller than expected in experience.

Best regards

Robert

[amidala]

Thanks for your input! This discussion is getting interesting! If I were to keep CRS and Diamonds in the same tank, beyond a certain amount of time I might possibly end up with more Diamonds than CRS?

When we "introduce" a Diamond to an all-CRS shrimp tank, you're saying that out of, say, the 10 offspring I get, some may be Diamond, but the rest which are CR will be of superior quality compared to its parents?

[gnome]

Thanks for your input! This discussion is getting interesting! If I were to keep CRS and Diamonds in the same tank, beyond a certain amount of time I might possibly end up with more Diamonds than CRS?

When we "introduce" a Diamond to an all-CRS shrimp tank, you're saying that out of, say, the 10 offspring I get, some may be Diamond, but the rest which are CR will be of superior quality compared to its parents?

A CRS has two *recessive* alleles (bb - using fruitpie's designation), which make it a "crystal red." However, a diamond shrimp may have two dominant alleles (BB - homozygous) or a dominant and recessive (Bb - heterozygous). If it has two dominant genes and it breeds with a CRS, the offspring (ideally) will be 100% heterozygous diamonds. If a heterozygous diamond breeds with CRS, statistically you'll get 50% CRS and 50% diamonds, but this is only if nature followed math in a very strict sense. IF you breed heterozygous diamond to homozygous diamond, you again get 100% diamond, but this time, 50% will be homozygous and 50% will be heterozygous (statistically). However, if you breed two heterozygous diamonds, mathematics says 25% of the offspring should be CRS. However, I feel the *actual* probability must take into account all sorts of other factors because that poor guy in Japan went through hell to develop CRS.

So I realize that what I just said probably makes no sense to a lot of people...

The answer to your first question is "yes." Chances are, you WILL have more diamonds than crystal reds. Hypothetically, if all of your crystal reds were female, and the one diamond was a homozygous male, ALL of the many offspring will be heterozygous DIAMONDS. There is, of course, no way to know if this one male diamond that was introduced were homozygous or heterozygous, unless the breeder that produced IT knew or could trace its lineage.

To answer your second question, well, again, refer to the answer to your first question... The only way you'll get ANY crystal reds in your *first set of offspring* would be if you had a heterozygous diamond. In this case, *ideally* you should get half and half. And the diamonds will also be heterozygous. But in reality, I believe that the outcome will usually favor the diamonds.

I think that unless you enjoy experimentation, you might want to simply "cross" your CRS with CRS from another breeder. Certain traits of certain species seem to follow Punnett (sp?) square rules much more reliably than others, and CRS may not be one of them. Or at least you don't want to find out the hard way...

"Superior quality" - no guarantee. If you're talking health-wise, well, it's always better to widen the gene pool and any CRS that you'd get out of out-crossing would probably be healthier. If you're talking about the "grade" of CRS offspring, I couldn't answer that.

Like I said, just cross your best CRS with CRS from another breeder who is aiming for similar traits and you can forget the genetics stuff I just rambled on about lol .

-Naomi

[gigahertz]

Well done Naomi! or should I have adressed you as Professor Naomi :scholar:
Very accurate and easily understandable explanations! :)

[retardo]

A CRS has two *recessive* alleles (bb - using fruitpie's designation), which make it a "crystal red." However, a diamond shrimp may have two dominant alleles (BB - homozygous) or a dominant and recessive (Bb - heterozygous). If it has two dominant genes and it breeds with a CRS, the offspring (ideally) will be 100% heterozygous diamonds. If a heterozygous diamond breeds with CRS, statistically you'll get 50% CRS and 50% diamonds, but this is only if nature followed math in a very strict sense. IF you breed heterozygous diamond to homozygous diamond, you again get 100% diamond, but this time, 50% will be homozygous and 50% will be heterozygous (statistically). However, if you breed two heterozygous diamonds, mathematics says 25% of the offspring should be CRS. However, I feel the *actual* probability must take into account all sorts of other factors because that poor guy in Japan went through hell to develop CRS.

So I realize that what I just said probably makes no sense to a lot of people... :bs_help: :shocked: :huh: :huh:


Like I said, just cross your best CRS with CRS from another breeder who is aiming for similar traits and you can forget the genetics stuff I just rambled on about lol .
:thinking:

Why didn't ya just say so?! Hehe... j/k I get ya! Thanks for clarifying... or was that confusing?

[amidala]

Naomi, thanks for the comprehensive explanation! Certainly helps to clear things up. I'm no serious breeder and my main aim is to keep healthy and happy shrimps (as is the aim of most hobbyists, I'm sure). I was mainly intrigued by the way in which CRS have come about - it started with the dwarf hamsters we used to keep, but even in the shrimp kingdom there's so much about recessive genes and lineage that we can learn about! lol

Anyway, my 3 Diamonds will remain in the tank with the rest of my CRS - I will be more than happy if they started to breed - red or otherwise! :D

Thanks again for your effort in crafting your post - I'm sure many others have benefited from your sharing too. :)

[simcb]

Hi amidala,

Nice tank of CRS...lolz did i see wrongly....you have so many Otos.

Ya, luckily in Singapore we dont have to travel great distances to do CRS exchanges. However we might be facing the issue that most CRS sources in Singapore might be coming from one locally bred supplier.

[amidala]

Hi amidala,

Nice tank of CRS...lolz did i see wrongly....you have so many Otos.

Ya, luckily in Singapore we dont have to travel great distances to do CRS exchanges. However we might be facing the issue that most CRS sources in Singapore might be coming from one locally bred supplier.

Hi simcb,

Thanks! :) I have 3 otos in my tank - the rest are all corydoras habrosus. :D They are the only 2 types of fish that are shrimp-friendly, in my (limited) experience. :)

[amidala]

Yes and no.

Yes, if you want to see only CRS (red and white) offsprings.
No, if you want to use diamond/bee shrimp to cross back to widen the genes pool.

Thank you for the explanation here too, fruitpie! :joking:

[retardo]

This whole discussion almost, *almost* makes me want to pick up a book on genetics and learn this stuff again. But logically speaking, my brain tells me I still will not truly comprehend. :huh: The one thing that perhaps isn't too hard to understand is the whole idea of selective breeding. Pick what you like, stick mum and dad together, and presto, babies with the desirable traits. :D

[gr81]

CRSs are great :]

[jwarper]

Fruitpie gave a very good explanation, and yes genetics are a bit difficult to understand. :)


For starters, lets just say the colors of the shrimp depend on one PAIR of genes.

the diamond/bee shrimp (black color) have the gene BB
the crystal red shrimp (red color) have the gene bb

B is dominant meaning its color (black) will always show over the recessive

b is recessive and its color (red) will only show if it is paired with another recessive b


if you breed diamond/bee with diamond/bee it would look like this: BB + BB = all BB (black) babies

if you breed CRS with CRS it looks like: bb + bb = all bb (red) babies

if you breed CRS with diamond/bee it would look like this: bb + BB = all Bb (black) babies because the B (black) gene is dominant.

BUT if you take some of these crossbreed Bb shrimp and breed them together it will give you the following: Bb + Bb = half BB (black) and half bb (red) babies.

It would take 2 generations, but crossing diamond/bee with CRS may be a good way to prevent inbreeding and get some strong genes into those CRS :cool:

[Maria]

Hi !

Bb + Bb = BB + Bb + Bb + bb

this means 25 % homozygous black (BB)
50 % heterozygous black (Bb)
and 25 % homozygous red (bb)

statistically, as Naomi wrote.

regards,
Maria

[Beviking]

Hi !

Bb + Bb = BB + Bb + Bb + bb

this means 25 % homozygous black (BB)
50 % heterozygous black (Bb)
and 25 % homozygous red (bb)

statistically, as Naomi wrote.

regards,
Maria

Yes, that is how it is suppose to work! Excellent thread :thumbsup: !

[Frank]

Very helpfull.
But is it a difference between male and female?
Should I better put male bees to my CRS or it doesn´t matter?

[German Dream]

hi,
perhaps you know the Mendelian laws ;)
According to those it´s not important if they are male or female...
Mfg

[Xema]

I am rescuing this post...

I have got a question, I saw it´s said if you cross breed black homozyogus and red homozygous you will not get red offspring... so I came back to my class of genetics rules in the univer¡sity and tried to make the calculation: Here I go...

Multiplying every alleles:

BB x bb = BB + BB + Bb + Bb + BB + BB + Bb + Bb + bB + bB + bb + bb + bB + bB + bb + bb

Simplifying:

BB x bb = 4BB + 8Bb + 4bb

That means:

50% Bb - Black&White fenotype
25% BB - Black&White fenotype
25% bb - Red&White fenotype

Am I right?

[Beviking]

I am rescuing this post...

I have got a question, I saw it´s said if you cross breed black homozyogus and red homozygous you will not get red offspring... so I came back to my class of genetics rules in the univer¡sity and tried to make the calculation: Here I go...

Multiplying every alleles:

BB x bb = BB + BB + Bb + Bb + BB + BB + Bb + Bb + bB + bB + bb + bb + bB + bB + bb + bb

Simplifying:

BB x bb = 4BB + 8Bb + 4bb

That means:

50% Bb - Black&White fenotype
25% BB - Black&White fenotype
25% bb - Red&White fenotype

Am I right?

Sorry but no. The BB gives one allele or one B for two different pairings, or simply, two B's. The bb does the same. When they come together, you get Bb and Bb. The bb cannot mate itself :)
Think of it as BB on one side, bb on the other, they come together and only make Bb.
Hope this makes sense.

[Xema]

Sorry but no. The BB gives one allele or one B for two different pairings, or simply, two B's. The bb does the same. When they come together, you get Bb and Bb. The bb cannot mate itself :)
Think of it as BB on one side, bb on the other, they come together and only make Bb.
Hope this makes sense.

That is not I learnt on plants


The bb cannot mate itself :)


I am not an expert, and I understand the genetic pool of both fenotypes get together and they combine themselves in all possible situations.
I can understand red recesive in a not recurrent fenotype crossbredding with black dominant fenotype, due to several cause we are out of our undeerstanding, sex, weakness of the genotype, eviroment factors, and so on. But thinking in the firsts 3 CRS appeared between 3000 black bee, I think must be more recurrent croosing with black bee...

It´s my humble and not expert opinion

[Joepmaster]

Hi Xema,

Like Beviking, I do not agree with your calculation of the cross. According to mendelian rules BB x bb will give you 100% Bb offspring (black/white phenotype but carrier for red/white).
Crossing Bb x Bb will give the results you described earlier, namely 50% Bb (black/white phenotype but carrier for red/white), 25% BB (black/white phenotype) and 25% bb (red/white phenotype).
Furter:
BB x BB gives 100% BB
and
bb x bb gives 100% bb.

Many greetings from the Netherlands,

Joep

[Xema]

I am wrong, thank to both.

So if you cross breed pure blacks with red ones, to get red recesive specimens again need cross breed F1 with red fenotype... Now am I right?

[Beviking]

Hello Xema,
I am no expert either and am only trying to clarify the statement you gave based on basic genetics. There are other occurances or phenomenon that occur in genetics that I cannot explain as they relate to shrimp (or anything for that matter :D ).
I wonder if 'nondisjunction' (the failure of the chromosomes to seperate) is what brought out the red bee to begin with??? According to my Genetics book, in regards to Fruitfly (Drosophila melanogaster) eye color, one in 2000 F1 flies showed an exeption to the rule. Do we even know if color is a sex-linked chromosome?
Just for clarification, phenotype is what the shrimp looks like, it's physical appearance. Genotype is the actual gene make-up. For example, a black bee has a black phenotype but can have a BB or Bb genotype.

Yes Xema, your F1 cross would result in some red (phenotype) shrimp. :)

Hello Joep!

[eeeeemo]

Hello Xema,
I am no expert either and am only trying to clarify the statement you gave based on basic genetics. There are other occurances or phenomenon that occur in genetics that I cannot explain as they relate to shrimp (or anything for that matter :D ).
I wonder if 'nondisjunction' (the failure of the chromosomes to seperate) is what brought out the red bee to begin with??? According to my Genetics book, in regards to Fruitfly (Drosophila melanogaster) eye color, one in 2000 F1 flies showed an exeption to the rule. Do we even know if color is a sex-linked chromosome?
Just for clarification, phenotype is what the shrimp looks like, it's physical appearance. Genotype is the actual gene make-up. For example, a black bee has a black phenotype but can have a BB or Bb genotype.

Yes Xema, your F1 cross would result in some red (phenotype) shrimp. :)

Hello Joep!

haha hey its very easy.. tell me! have you ever kept a female diamond that always gives birth to 100% MALE diamonds regardless of who she breeds with, whether crs or diamond males??? if so.. then we shall carry out the tedious process to test for sexlinkage.. but i doubt so u see..or it will be v v v hard to do selective dihybrid crosses..........

however, i am assuming that crs/diamond shrimps do follow a heterogametic sex determination.. (meaning XY are always males and XX are always females) and that the sexlinkage for diamond lies on the Xchromosome locus. and of course that diamonds allele B are not fully, but significantly dominant over crs allele b.

so if you really really want to test such a solid reasoning.. sure..no harm to try! but you should have at least 3 separate breeding tanks to carry the experiment out. you hafta test any female diamond. cross it with a male crs. and wait for the first batch F1s to grow up. tht will take aprox. 2mths. den you check how many males are crs and how many males are not. (to be honest, the moment you attain ONE male crs.. sexlinkage theory already fails at this point) and to be complete you should carry out three such tests with the same pair and then carry out a chi squared test to confirm your observation/hypothesis. if you do it simultaneously it should take around 4-5mths to find out.

haha but i have a feeling... crs does not follow heterogametic sex determination...... male birds are homogametic sex (XX) while females are herterogametic sexed. that you will need a life science lab to carry out more checks and comfirmations. =)

BTW crs and diamonds can display incomplete dominance as some offsprings are show brown phenotypes..... (meaning B is not fully dominant over R guys.)

[brettmck]

Hi All I am new to this forum and new to CRS as well. Currently have five C grade shrimp in a 26L tank. Just had my first shrimplets born 6 days ago !

I too wanted to know about CRS genes and breeding. Once i had found out the genes and which were recessive and dominant I looked up Mendel Genetics on the net. It is easy to find and will give you a little grid to work out % of colours that you should get from a cross.

CRS are very new here in Australia so not much quality to choose from so hopefully I can improve my grades by breeding.

Brett:)

[Lovespuds]

hi,
perhaps you know the Mendelian laws ;)
According to those it´s not important if they are male or female...
Mfg

This is true for colour in bee shrimp but it is not always true for mendalian genetic traits. As some traits are sex linked.

For example in humans some sex linked traits include:
- Baldness (mainly only found men)
- Red green colour blindness (again mainly only in men)

These traits are only found on the male Y chromosome

In cats you will never find a male tortoiseshell coloured cat (white with , brown and black patches )

But in the case of bee shrimp where where both male and female can be Red and white it is obviously not sex linked.

[TitoC]

This is true for colour in bee shrimp but it is not always true for mendalian genetic traits. As some traits are sex linked.

For example in humans some sex linked traits include:
- Baldness (mainly only found men)
- Red green colour blindness (again mainly only in men)

These traits are only found on the male Y chromosome

In cats you will never find a male tortoiseshell coloured cat (white with , brown and black patches )

But in the case of bee shrimp where where both male and female can be Red and white it is obviously not sex linked.

Baldness is more a result of testosterone, and the gene for Daltonism is on the X chromosome, same for the colors in tortoise cats. A female cat can have 1 allele for brown and 1 allele for black, making her 2 color tortoise. On top of that, the white is a different gene, so she can have 3 colors. Male kittens from this cat can then be brown or black with white. If they have the color of their mother, they are Klinefelters, XXY, more common than you'd guess (also in humans...).
Y chromosomes are very small, just big enough for hairy ear syndrom in some Indian families, and some rare baldness gene yes.
That's why women can have daltonism, the chance is just exponentially smaller, as they need the defect on both X chromosomes. Otherwise they are carriers.

As for the bee shrimp, I do see a dimorphism in the color between sexes. But the color is for sure not sex linked. It is not sure Caridina shrimp even have sex chromosomes...

[yoyo]

what is the reason that causes the color of crystal red shrimp becoming clear. I mean, some of my shrimp,the white part is becoming clear. Hehe,, I just start it ...:huh:

[TitoC]

what is the reason that causes the color of crystal red shrimp becoming clear. I mean, some of my shrimp,the white part is becoming clear. Hehe,, I just start it ...:huh:

do a search on this in the archived threads

http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/showthread.php/wta-color-red-3021.html?t=3021&highlight=fade+white

for instance

[skewlboy30]

How much does genetics play in it? I have some of the pale color shrimp and also some strong white ones in the same tank and from the same breeder.

[TitoC]

in order of importance (imo)

genetics
water parameters (pH has to be 7 or less)
molt stage + activity

I can imagine that diet would also play a role if they don't get enough astaxantin etc. but have no experience with that in crs.

[epi]

hi..silane..and everybody...i just wanna ask about baby crs.
Last week i see the baby CRS the size about 0.2mm but not yet color.
so i doubt is it baby crs or no?
the question:1. is CRS new born has not yet color?
2.if new born CRS not yet color so how long has?

please forgive me my english poor
thx anyway

[Piotr Stepien]

small CRS shrimps next born can be transparent particularly higher classes, but for a few days u should see difference between CRS and another shrimps. Small CRS shrimps grade C,B,A have a good coulors next born.

[akvatera]

need more informations :)

[zacks]

guys is that diamond is the same nickname of pure red line?

:lol: i'm still newbie for CRS shrimps..........i have it a year ago and i thought that would be the same to keeping like RCS .......and then one by one died in the 3 months- until 7months ..........

now i'm really focus and learn for that shrimps......:p

[CyRuS_ViRuS]

If you get a CBS in a CRS tank, you´ll be getting really a panda, It wan´t be a CBS, genetically is not possible.

[CrystalMethShrimp]

is that where panda's come from?
i thought it was just cbs x cbs until you remove most of the white.

[cain]

Hello, nope it's not so easy, if you remove for example most of white of a CRS you get a super CRS, but not a TB, TB's is a genetical mutation and not just some kind of white selection. To really understand the difference between tb and crystal you need to see them live; some years ago I had the same problem, untill I saw one ;)