Planted Tank Dosing and keeping Shrimp Happy

[Rupert]

I was wondering how other members handle the demands of dosing for a planted tank and keeping their shrimp happy. At present I have some Yamoto and can see that they are not happy when the nitrates get high. Since this is the 12th day into the cycling process in a very heavily planted tank some instability in the environment is probably normal, plus I am learning along the way and have made the odd mistake. The other Shrimp that I plan to introduce are a few Wood and Cherry Shrimp.

Tom Barr puts forward the a range of values for the Estimative Index:
• CO2 range 20-30ppm (+ or -) 5ppm of CO2 is fine in a 20-30ppm range.
• NO3 range 5-20ppm (+ or -) 1ppm or so of NO3 is pretty reasonable.
• K+ range 10-30ppm (+ or -) 2ppm of K+ is pretty reasonable.
• PO4 range 0.4-1.5 ppm (+ or -) 0.2ppm of PO4 is pretty reasonable (?)
• Fe 0.5ppm or higher (?) (+ or -) 0.1ppm of Fe is reasonable (?)

The nitrate range will clearly cause problems. My approach will be to dose small but often, but am interested in what other members Do?

Tanks Specs
• Tank Dimensions: 122cm (L) x 61cm (W) x 76cm (H) or in inches 48 x 24 x 30
• Effective volume of water 420L [10 cm substrate, filled 2.5cm from top of the tank, ~20kg rocks & wood, remembering that because of the glass thickness that 3 cm of the width & height is glass]
• Glass thickness & type: 15mm Asahi Glass
• Type of Lighting: MH & FL [Dymax Hi-Lux]
• Lighting Intensity: 360 Watts [300 MH, 60 FL @ 6500k]
• No. of Hours your light is on: FL 11.30 noon - 9:30 PM [Total Duration 10hrs] MH 1.30 – 8:30 [Total Duration 7 hrs]
• Type of CO2 (DIY/Liquid/Tank): Presurised Tank with JBL with integrated regulator/solenoid/bubble counter, connected to pH Controller,
• Method of Injection (e.g. Diffuser/Reactor): NA Reactor
• Substrate Used: Lapis Sand [3 x 22 kg] about 3 inches thick
• How thick is your base fert: Dennerle Deponit-Mix 200 9.6 kg x 2 and Dennerle Deponit-Mix 120 4.8kg x1
• Liquid Fertilizers Used: LushGro Aqua & LushGro Micro
• Frequency of fertilization: tbd, Micros Mon – Wed – Fri + day of water change. Macro, when needed during cycling
• Type of Filter: Eheim 2028 canister
• Filter media used: Eheim SUBSTRAT PRO & EHFI MENCH
• Temperature of water. 80F/26.6C using a 1/5 HP chiller
• How long has your tank been set up: 12 days

Plant Bio load .
1. Dwarf Hair Grass [Eleocharis acicularis]
2. Blyxa Japonica
3. Rotala Wallichii
4. Aponogeton Longiplumulosus.
5. Java Moss
6. 4 guppies
7. 7 Yamoto

[simcb]

If you got more than 30 shrimps in a 2ft....try not to dose any fert at all. I am having algae problem as the nutrients stacked with the debris the shrimps generated. Do weekly water change to remove the nitrates if you want to keep your yamatos happy.

Now i am trying to rectify the problem....removing any object that would trap the debris above gravel level and doing big water changes + reduced lighting.....dose fert if your tank is very heavily planted and when the plants are showing stunted growth or turning yellow.

Most importantly keep the co2 stable at 24-30ppm during lights on.

if anything goes wrong when co2 is stable its the fert.

[silane]

Rupert,

I can't comment on the rest of the parameters as I don't have a high maintenance planted tank, but NO3.

It seems that NO3 has to be kept at around 10ppm or less so that shrimps will be happy, I guess with lower temperature like yours will reduce any nitrate effect on them. I am using fast growing plant to suck up the nitrate and recently started experiementing with Seachem De*Nitrate to reduce the nitrate.

[nevada]

Mr Rupert,

so far for my 2ft tank i have about 20 yamatoes and 10 (or even more) tiger shrimps. i am using the dennerlle fertilization once every two weeks thats includes V30, S7, Gold7, E15 and A1 ... i do even mix it with ADA Brighty K. So far no casualties with my shrimp and they are doing pretty well. and manage to breed ...

[nevada]

here are the pic of the tiger ... :D

[nevada]

Rupert,

I can't comment on the rest of the parameters as I don't have a high maintenance planted tank, but NO3.

It seems that NO3 has to be kept at around 10ppm or less so that shrimps will be happy, I guess with lower temperature like yours will reduce any nitrate effect on them. I am using fast growing plant to suck up the nitrate and recently started experiementing with Seachem De*Nitrate to reduce the nitrate.

what he said is true ... in fact in my tank the temp is about 25 - 28 Degree. cooling in down with ice everyday. so i think thats the reason why my shrimps are doing fine.

[simcb]

what he said is true ... in fact in my tank the temp is about 25 - 28 Degree. cooling in down with ice everyday. so i think thats the reason why my shrimps are doing fine.

I agree too... for planted shrimp tank.
1. temp is most important i guess for shrimps

2. next water parameter like ammonia, nitrate, cholrine, cholrminie and KH less than 4 is the best(for shrimps).

3. worried how to keep the plants healthy and algae low.
(dont dose fert unless your plants are dying...provided c02 is at 20-30ppm
i noticed matured tanks mostly doesnt require addition liquid fert as their bioload is high)

I am currently suffering from some after effects of the insecticide fogging which killed most of my precious CRS....hidden decomposing bodies(just found the source) = ammonia + nitrates is now affecting my current tank causing algae and planaria problem.....if only i got had the undertakers(which i removed) to finish up the dead bodies....got to add in a few yamatoes to do the job next time a shrimp pass away.

[Rupert]

I am 12 days the cycling process, and do notice that the yamotos are not happy; my mortality rate seems to be one a day. The plants are growing like crazy, which is good.

I have observed that Lushgro Micros and PO4 doesn’t seem to affect them. However tonight I came home, the CO2 had been on for a while and as usual, there was this one redish yamoto doing laps of the tank, it might go pale, but it will probably be the next one that dies.

I got to thinking about CO2 levels, but with a ph of 6.60 and kH of 3, that works out to 23ppm for CO2, but this is ok as well, so it must be the cycling process is and the tank is not fully matured.

[Robert]

Hi Rupert,
I have no high maintenance planted tank, would cost too much for me and I have no time all year long because of my studies (so I have a mainly moss tank + breeding tanks). But what you should experience at the moment is a high nitrite level if you set up the tank about two weeks ago. Please measure ammonia (should not be a problem anymore, normally it has its maximum in the first week) and your nitrite level.
Yamoto shrimps are not that sensitive to nitrate, so even 15-20ppm should be no big problem. But the nitrite is much more toxic to them. Or your yamotos were ill when you got them. Shrimp can get certain diseases and especially wild-caught ones like yamatos can have them.

Also measure your oxygen level if you can. With a high bioload in the first weeks and new plants which are not adapted to the new environment as well as aerobia bacteria like Nitrobacteria, the level could be quite low.

regards

Robert

[Rupert]

Thanks Robert, I shall assume that it is nothing complicated, just the cycling process occurring, now it is a mater of letting it continue and everything should stabilize.

[Rupert]

Robert, I tested for ammonia, which was ok .

Made one adjustment, I changed my CO2 from 3bps to 2 bps as my external reactor was expelling some bubbles. I observed that it took longer for my pH come back down that evening from 6.75 to 6.66. [Morning 6.57, Evening 6.75]

Well the next day by accident I saw for the first time some normal behavour and no deaths! Now I am not sure if the two events are connected? So I will observer for the next couple of days as see how it goes. My hypothesis, it is not the magnitude of the pH fluctuation, rather the temporal duration in which the fluctuations occurred was too short, thereby stressing the shrimp.

Anyway… I will see how it goes

[Robert]

Hi Rupert,
I use DIY CO2 and set up a new bottle in the last days. I experienced the same. The fluctuation of the ph and the high CO2 level (added a bit more than before) does influence the shrimps. I keep only cherry shrimps in the tank but they clearly showed me their opinion about the increase of CO2 with pale colors.

My KH is very high (ca. 18dKH), so I guess the ph swing should not be that high in my tank. But the amount of CO2 significantly increased and that should have stressed my shrimps. I reduced the DIY solution and now the bubble rate is smaller, more like before the bottle change and my shrimps show their normal coloration again. So my theory is that the CO2 amount also affects the shrimps, not only the change of the ph level. BTW, the fishes in this tank (Rasbora espei, R. henglei, 4 Poecilia reticulata var., Hisonotus notatus) didn't show any unusual behavior, so no gasping for air, no fadin colors or things like this.

best regards

Robert

[Rupert]

Thanks Robert,

At least I am headed in the right direction... The Yamoto seem happy but I am cautious about progress until a week or so has gone by. Tomorrow I will trim my hair grass [lawn mowing] then leave the environment to stabilize

My goal is to keep Cherry shrimp and the redder the better. I might even try selective breeding/culling to do this.

You mentioned that a high maintenance tanks are too expensive, which is sort of true. I must admit that I have spent more than I budget for but I had the opportunity to start again and try and avoid some of my previous mistakes. The pressurized CO2 and especially the pH controller qualify … the MH lights push along the whole tank so changes do happen very quickly. The Chiller & pH controller are about control and ease of maintenance… I do not worry about temperature, or CO2 levels, I worry about dosing and water changes. I can do a 50% water change, change the filter in 1 hour... goal is 30 mins.

I hope to be able to stop the frequent testing in a few weeks once I get to a point of environmental equilibrium and dosing requirements are predictable.

Another point is location, Singapore is a good location for this hobby, good second hand equipment, which most of mine is, can be found in the forums if one is willing to post and wait.

Regards Rupert

[Rupert]

Post note: 6 days after adjusting the CO2 bps from 3 to 2 bps I have not experienced any further deaths.

[Naja002]

I got to thinking about CO2 levels, but with a ph of 6.60 and kH of 3, that works out to 23ppm for CO2, but this is ok as well, so it must be the cycling process is and the tank is not fully matured.

People are beginning to realize that the PH, Kh and C02 ppm Tables are not very accurate/reliable. Currently, as this thread shows--watch the animals! Increase C02 SLOWLY until the animals begin to show stress--then back the C02 down a bit and things should be fine.