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Thread: [Debate] what pureline really means.

  1. #11
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    Yes, it is true that line breeding creates health problems for the shrimp line.

    This can be done for more generations in shrimp than it could be done in some other animals. I am not sure why but my guess is that it is the simple nature of the shrimp (less highly refined organs and processes than most mammals).

    I have heard something like 15 generations mentioned before when talking about the length of time that they can be line bred before serious problems start to pop-up but that is not something I have verified through personal experience or through direct contact with any of the Japanese breeders who have been doing line breeding for a long time.

    The one positive in this is that adding new genes (outcrossing?) even once can result in significant health and genetic improvements. As imke_j mentioned this outcrossing would require you to start all over (sort of resetting the line in a breeding sense) in terms of starting a new line or name.

    I think that what the 35shrimps guys have done is pretty fascinating. They took several established and very high grade JPRL shrimp lines and mixed together the best of the best. This allowed the 'new line' to not only start with incredible genetics and grading (super color, nice grading/striping) but also provided the new line with a much wider gene pool which appears to have resulted in much more healthy and productive shrimp.

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    what 35shrimps did was a great step, not just is better for the shrimp, but the result is better for breeder, I mean profits would be higher for him/her.

    the breeding method which to increase the value (meaning beauty, price, and popularity) of the pet always give more economic result for breeder or owner/who don't focus to breed them, just to love them and sometime bring them to the contest show.
    I mean about the economic result here is the higher price, maybe it look like not good for people, but let us think the good side here. When people have pet with higher price, they will give more portion of love, care, and attention, also as Imke_J said, one of our mission is to make shrimp hobby/or aquarium hobby generally have more popularity and more people want and can join this hobby.

    ok, back to pureline breeding, I think sometime biology can be a misteryous case, for example when I see, how a normall lion family can get a white lion babies ? >>>i choose this example cause We talk about color of animal here.

    any possibility sometime We will have caridina/neocaridina shrimp which have different shapes on body than We have owned now ?
    I mean like developmet at Betta fish, like different form of their tail.

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    The problem with PRL's is you are basically buying them to own them as a status symbol and you pay the price for that. Just because you buy 2 shrimp for $350 a piece and breed them, you can't charge $350 for the offspring. Most of that cost comes from the name of the breeder and buying shrimp only farmed at their farms. Any other breeding outside the farm, you loose the name. There is no guarantee to give a buyer that your shrimp babies are PRL (or whatever line). Even Max-Kenji, the official importer to the US has said if he gets babies in his shrimp while having them imported and not sold yet, he can't sell the babies as PRL's meaning the PRL's we can get are only imported, no one anywhere else other than the farms can sell the shrimp as that name, so buying these PRL's get you the status of owning them but expecting to recover your investment, you won't. It takes years of you putting out quality shrimp to get a name established for yourself that will warrant the price you want. The name says it all.


    I can understand this, knowing a bit about dog breeding. If you buy 2 top quality dogs from a very famous kennel, and you pay $5000 a piece from ABC kennels, it doesn't mean just because you breed the 2 dogs that you can warrant $5000 a piece for the puppies. Your puppies may have ABC Kennel genes, but they are not ABC Kennel dogs. As with shrimp, with dogs, their is heavy culling involved. You may only get 1 $5000 quality dog from every 2-3 litters. Some others are only $3000 dogs. Lastly, most kennels sell their culls as "pet quality" meaning it doesn't make the grade in terms of AKC specs for the bred, so they usually sell them already fixed so you can't even breed them as they don't want a dog that's not even up to specs to be bred and have you try and sell the puppies as ABC Kennel dogs when they don't make the cut.

    Same with PRL's, they guarantee the quality when they leave the farm, after that, they can't. They cull heavy there and any shrimp not up to SSS grade (they use different grading for PRL's and our SSS isn't their SSS) it may get bumped down to a SS or S grade or even culled out put into a cull tank. Someone who invests $2000 in PRL's probably isn't going to cull to the same specs trying to get their investment back, nor knowing the grading system as this even varies between breeders and what a SSS-Hino to Ebiten may not be SSS-Hino to or vice versa.

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to GeToChKn For This Useful Post:

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeToChKn View Post
    Same with PRL's, they guarantee the quality when they leave the farm, after that, they can't.
    Well explained and observed! Personally, I am so fed up with price, quality discussions, and shrimp breeder name dropping that I not only feel the urge to switch to wild shrimp, but to turn to planted tanks generally. A lot of guys still feeling flattered by being close to reputable shrimp breeder / sellers sometimes have not recognized market strategies and what is all behind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imke_j View Post
    Well explained and observed! Personally, I am so fed up with price, quality discussions, and shrimp breeder name dropping that I not only feel the urge to switch to wild shrimp, but to turn to planted tanks generally. A lot of guys still feeling flattered by being close to reputable shrimp breeder / sellers sometimes have not recognized market strategies and what is all behind.

    Yup. Granted, some of the PRL's are stunning to see, but with some selective breeding on your own and starting with good stock, you can get nice looking shrimp too and it gives you the pleasure of doing it yourself. I don't breed to get rich or anything but I do like being able to sell some off to keep my hobby going and be able to pay for new shrimp in the future by selling off old ones and buying PRL's, you won't be able to recoop that investment for a while.

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    Whether you care about the prestige of having the latest and greatest shrimp or not we all will benefit from these high end shrimp spreading in the hobby.

    Unlike dogs (which have medium sized litters and may only have a handful of litters per life time) most of the shrimp species that we keep breed rapidly. The offspring of these PRL shrimp or of the newest and greatest Taiwan Bee variant are going to spread throughout the hobby one way or the other and eventually bring the overall quality of shrimp up.

    Heck, the quality level of regular CRS is increasing rapidly lately - perhaps just to try and compete with the visual appeal of the PRL shrimp.

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    Not sure if this has any bearing on any of this but in my experience PRL has bred at a young age and also produced more eggs and young which grow quicker than Regular CRS . I am not dealing with expensive pure lines but rather regular grade . There does seem to be better contrast and whiter whites . Again I have only bred S - SS Grade and not the High grade's for reason's already mentioned . I have also noticed the better the pattern and higher the grade the more exacting they are as to cultural requirements . My purpose in getting these is to offer a nicer colored quicker growing alternative to S and SS grade CRS . It will be years if ever the market in the US will bear prices that are commonplace in Asia especially Japan . I am glad realistic pricing has been quoted here as Americans seem to think that for $20 or so they should be getting top grade pure line with red leg's . $1000 and up is where things really get good from what I understand . In the meanwhile I will be content with improved S and SS . Someone need's to explain what you will be getting in an SSS pattern PL for $20 . Lots of great info on this thread Thanks People

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