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Thread: Hot topic: Gentics of Black King Kong and other Taiwan Bee Shrimp

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    Arrow Hot topic: Gentics of Black King Kong and other Taiwan Bee Shrimp

    The origin of the so called Taiwan Bee (namely in grades: King Kong, Panda, Ruby Red, Wine Red, Blue Bolt) is still dubious. As Silane explained, these shrimps are mutants of CR shrimp. The question behind is, if these CR groups have perhaps had contact to other caridina species generations before - or if this mutation emerged in 'pure' CR lines, too.

    Blue and Black Tiger shrimps have been discussed to be involved as well as the (Golden) or Snow White shrimps. Besides, the genetically background of the CR might be interesting regarding the emergence of Snow White shrimps in general. Is the appearance of Taiwan Bee linked to the appareance of Snow White?

    This thread is open for every theory, question and field report! Please respect others opinions and be careful with your reactions on contrary statements. Thanks!

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    Imke,

    I am not surprised at all at the zero responses. As I have talked about on many occassions, it seems that the people who are getting the mutations OR creating them via crossbreeding are not giving the complete details. Also as Imke suggested, it is also VERY probable that many people who have indeed confirmed that they bred these variants in CRS only tanks...the "TRUE" genes of our breeding colonies are in deed, IN DOUBT! I would think that very few people today can validate with authenticity PURE red crs back to the original line...
    I have been doing my own breeding experiments and IF I get any results worthy of posting I will surely accurately describe my experiences. I however, cannot provide a baseline as to what the true genetics of my CRS/CBS purchases more than naming the people whom I bought them from.
    Recently I had two SSS CRS mothers give birth to 8 or 9 white variants. The parent crosses where SSS CRS x SSS CRS and SSS CRS x SSS CBS. The black red cross was somewhat accidental as I figured "what are the chances that 1 sss cbs will outcompete 20+ CRS. Well, just like birth control, it's still math! Anyway, back to the story...Now I have ~9 snowwhite babies of different "grades"...I am going to try and grade them according to what I have read about which go red and which black...then breed them in a small tank with some select crs and cbs and see what happens! We'll see! Hopefully I can report something in the future.







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    There is nothing much to say if they are from mutation, mutation is something you get it or dont get it. It is something by chance. One can get mutation does not means that the other can get it, especially they are not using the same line. The founder of KK/WR is Mr Yeh from Taiwan, he got the first shrimps in a tank of mix CRS, Black CRS and golden. So this is by mutation, as there is no other species involved. Coincidentally or not, KK and WR spur from the same area of Taiwan, and these people are friends of Mr Yeh or those who bought their CRS from him.

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    I believe that this shrimp can emerge in CR lines and if I would keep them for a couple of months, I'd call them mutations, too. This mutations havn't appeared yet in CB lines - or am I wrong? How does the black variant come from?

    Some CR keeper all over the world have single wine red appearing in their groups; we know this from pictures shown in forums.

    Silane: Do you think that they have CR shrimps with Taiwanese origins? Or do they have simply luck to have mutations, too? How can we explain the sudden emegerge of this Wine Reds?

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    Quote Originally Posted by imke_j View Post
    I believe that this shrimp can emerge in CR lines and if I would keep them for a couple of months, I'd call them mutations, too. This mutations havn't appeared yet in CB lines - or am I wrong? How does the black variant come from?

    Some CR keeper all over the world have single wine red appearing in their groups; we know this from pictures shown in forums.

    Silane: Do you think that they have CR shrimps with Taiwanese origins? Or do they have simply luck to have mutations, too? How can we explain the sudden emegerge of this Wine Reds?
    Silane...thank you
    Imke... I agree with your question to Silane. As I have said I have been doing tons of research for over a year now and I have heard several different stories. To say it is a plain mutation is really selling the problem short (in my opinion). Some have said they have gotten these variants with CRS pops, and others have said they have gotten them with mixed pops of CRS and CBS and others have said they have had some form of white variant involved (either golden OR snow white) and STILL others talk about interbreeding with tigers at some point in their past.
    Silane I believe I read something you posted here on Shrimp Now about the populations of CRS having the litttle tiger bands on the tail being a population from Taiwan that seem to produce these mutant offspring. I believe the REAL problem lies with what Imke suggested earlier...unfortunately even if the comments made by some forum users are absolutely correct, it is NEARLY impossible for most of us to now the TRUE genetic background of our shrimp. As I said earlier, I know nothing about my 2 lines other than whom I purchased them from. Although, I suspect that one of my lines has been crossed with a white variant at some point in their past despite being told that was not the case. There is too much evidence pushing me towards this conclusion. I read a forum thread that said that the person who wrote it believed that the origin of the KK/WR variant first showed up in the Taiwan lines because they were MASS producing CRS and were kept in huge tanks and an occasional tiger or possibly other shrimp got in there and altered the genes of that pop...AS FAR AS I HAVE HEARD, SILANE please correct me if I am wrong, BUT KK AND WR HAVE NOT SHOWN UP in PURE RED LINEAGE! Is this correct??? The reason I suspect this is true is because I have also come across research stating that several forum members have began to actually PRODUCE these mutations (KK/WR) through their own selective breeeding of their CRS with tigers etc! I am not sure if we will ever actually come to a sound cocnlusion as to the origin of these variants/hybreds short of actually running DNA gels and mapping the genes...which would make a pretty exciting University project for any of you out there. In my younger years I have been part of these studies with many fish including Salmon, Suckers, cyprinids etc...It simply takes the drive and resources to pull it off. Until then, I look forward to everyones input.







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    Quote Originally Posted by imke_j View Post

    Silane: Do you think that they have CR shrimps with Taiwanese origins? Or do they have simply luck to have mutations, too? How can we explain the sudden emegerge of this Wine Reds?
    Likely, they have TW origin, but I cannot be sure. For 1 instance here, showing mutation of Wine Red, the breeder claimed that the parental stock is from me, and I pretty sure that is Mr Yeh's line.

    But there is also claim that this mutation happens in other part of the world which does not has TW CRS origin.

    Something, we can't be sure is, how CRS trading is done, how they travel around the world. This, we cannot trace the origin, if the parental stock are from TW origin or not.

    The same question apply to the emerge of CRS from bee shrimps. Can anyone explain that? We know CRS is a mutation of red color version of bee shrimps or we call black diamond shrimp here.

    Summit MicroFarm, those hybrid with Tiger Shrimps look different from Wine Red and King Kong, though they look both deep red and black, but the intensity is different particularly in area of rostrum, legs and tail.

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    Silane, do you think of the hybrids after Tigers are something else? So what is it? Tiger bee? For me I noticed repeatability in subsequent litters. With different female individuals were born deep red with white dots on the tail. I wonder what will be born with these individuals in subsequent generations. Maybe then you will be able to call them Polish bee: D


    At first glance, do not see big differences. I will try to do a rapprochement on the rostrum, tail and legs, and we will be able to better assess

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    Hello!
    My King Kong and red wine appeared as a random mutation of the black bee, obtained from the South-East Asia. In the progeny of the Bees never had Tiger Shrimp, but sometimes appeared Golden Bee and the Red Bee. My part of the concern was only that I otsadil Diamond Shrimp and multiply them.
    An interesting result provides a mating male Diamond Shrimp with Black female bee. In the progeny are Red Bee, Bee Black and Diamond Bee. But not all males Diamond Bee can fertilize females. Apparently this genetic mutation than beautiful color gives sterile offspring.
    I ask my position taken merely as statistics. Because I have no possibility to trace the origin of my shrimp. I hope my information will be useful.
    Sorry for my bad English ...

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    Moderator silane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by novina View Post
    Silane, do you think of the hybrids after Tigers are something else? So what is it? Tiger bee? For me I noticed repeatability in subsequent litters. With different female individuals were born deep red with white dots on the tail. I wonder what will be born with these individuals in subsequent generations. Maybe then you will be able to call them Polish bee: D


    At first glance, do not see big differences. I will try to do a rapprochement on the rostrum, tail and legs, and we will be able to better assess
    I believe what you have is entirely different from King kong or Wine Red, and yes, if you can can duplicate them, you can call them Poland Bee.

    How many black and red do you have?

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    Grzegorz Nowinski
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    at the moment I've got 4 solid red and 1 solid black - red were born from 2 or 3 females so it is no a rule. I've got many weak black and some weak red . Both with white pattern like red ruby and king kong (panda)

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