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Thread: Crystal Red Shrimp + Crystal Red Shrimp = CRS/Diamonds?

  1. #11
    Super Member kross's Avatar
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    Ok, now I'm really confused....
    the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak....

  2. #12
    Shrimper
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    Quote Originally Posted by kross
    Ok, now I'm really confused....
    Put it simpler in this way

    Lets look at these 3 types of shrimps:
    (According to Asia naming convention)
    related shrimps-
    1. Diamond (brown/orange tint at the head and tail)
    2. crystal red shrimp(genetic mutation-red pigment from diamond shrimps)

    Totally unrelated but looked alike:
    3. Bee shrimps(there are many unamed species)

    Hopes it makes sense.
    Regards,
    Sim

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    Moderator silane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amidala

    So am I right to say that if I wished to breed only crystal red shrimp (i.e. only red & white banding), I should not mix the Diamond/Bee with the CRS?

    Thanks for clarifying!

    Yes and no.

    Yes, if you want to see only crystal red shrimp (red and white) offsprings.
    No, if you want to use diamond/bee shrimp to cross back to widen the genes pool.

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    Senior retardo's Avatar
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    ok, that clarifies things a little. my understanding was that a diamond was introduced into a breeding program of CRS for genetic diversification purposes. any offspring resulting from a diamond and high (or any grade) grade CRS can further improve the CRS line. does that make sense?

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    Moderator silane's Avatar
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    Yes Smartdo,

    I know some hobbyists breed CRS and Diamond for generations in the same tank, and if one want to use such Diamond/Bee to diversify such CRS genes, the effect will not be there. Should get Diamond from somewhere else.
    Last edited by silane; 28th Apr 2005 at 10:19 AM.

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    myles (19th Feb 2011)

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    thanks for the info. anyone know (or care to take a guess at) how many generations it would take before the recessive red gene that is characteristic of CRS to reappear if a diamond were introduced? that is, how do we get the desired effect?

    fruitpie, what do you mean when you say get the diamond from somewhere else? you mean from another breeder?

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    Moderator silane's Avatar
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    I heard it takes 6 or 7 generations to get defective genes, I have not breed to that many generations and have been diversifying the genes via various sources including wild diamond, so I can;t be sure 6 or 7 is the figure. I was able to get some very nice diamond offspring from wild ugly diamond, will take pic when I have the time.

    Yeah, somewhere else means another breeder (just make sure the breeder you get from did not get from the same breeder ).

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    Hi,
    to inbreed shrimps for at least 6 generations is no problem. I did it myself with my green shrimps and got the first problems in the 7th generation. It could be the genes or the water conditions (it was last summer and we get sometimes bad water in summer, my guppies often also get problems in this time).

    My CR are now the 5th generation of pure inbreeding and there are no problems yet. You can always try to outcross them to other CRS line from other breeders because a outcross to diamond would mean to loose the red phenotype in the next generation and even in the F2 they don't really follow Mendel's laws. The percentage of CRS is smaller than expected in experience.

    Best regards

    Robert

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    myles (19th Feb 2011)

  12. #19
    amidala
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    Thanks for your input! This discussion is getting interesting! If I were to keep CRS and Diamonds in the same tank, beyond a certain amount of time I might possibly end up with more Diamonds than CRS?

    When we "introduce" a Diamond to an all-CRS shrimp tank, you're saying that out of, say, the 10 offspring I get, some may be Diamond, but the rest which are CR will be of superior quality compared to its parents?

  13. #20
    gnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by amidala
    Thanks for your input! This discussion is getting interesting! If I were to keep CRS and Diamonds in the same tank, beyond a certain amount of time I might possibly end up with more Diamonds than CRS?

    When we "introduce" a Diamond to an all-CRS shrimp tank, you're saying that out of, say, the 10 offspring I get, some may be Diamond, but the rest which are CR will be of superior quality compared to its parents?
    A CRS has two *recessive* alleles (bb - using fruitpie's designation), which make it a "crystal red." However, a diamond shrimp may have two dominant alleles (BB - homozygous) or a dominant and recessive (Bb - heterozygous). If it has two dominant genes and it breeds with a CRS, the offspring (ideally) will be 100% heterozygous diamonds. If a heterozygous diamond breeds with CRS, statistically you'll get 50% CRS and 50% diamonds, but this is only if nature followed math in a very strict sense. IF you breed heterozygous diamond to homozygous diamond, you again get 100% diamond, but this time, 50% will be homozygous and 50% will be heterozygous (statistically). However, if you breed two heterozygous diamonds, mathematics says 25% of the offspring should be CRS. However, I feel the *actual* probability must take into account all sorts of other factors because that poor guy in Japan went through hell to develop CRS.

    So I realize that what I just said probably makes no sense to a lot of people...

    The answer to your first question is "yes." Chances are, you WILL have more diamonds than crystal reds. Hypothetically, if all of your crystal reds were female, and the one diamond was a homozygous male, ALL of the many offspring will be heterozygous DIAMONDS. There is, of course, no way to know if this one male diamond that was introduced were homozygous or heterozygous, unless the breeder that produced IT knew or could trace its lineage.

    To answer your second question, well, again, refer to the answer to your first question... The only way you'll get ANY crystal reds in your *first set of offspring* would be if you had a heterozygous diamond. In this case, *ideally* you should get half and half. And the diamonds will also be heterozygous. But in reality, I believe that the outcome will usually favor the diamonds.

    I think that unless you enjoy experimentation, you might want to simply "cross" your CRS with CRS from another breeder. Certain traits of certain species seem to follow Punnett (sp?) square rules much more reliably than others, and CRS may not be one of them. Or at least you don't want to find out the hard way...

    "Superior quality" - no guarantee. If you're talking health-wise, well, it's always better to widen the gene pool and any CRS that you'd get out of out-crossing would probably be healthier. If you're talking about the "grade" of CRS offspring, I couldn't answer that.

    Like I said, just cross your best CRS with CRS from another breeder who is aiming for similar traits and you can forget the genetics stuff I just rambled on about .

    -Naomi

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