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Thread: best internal filter for breeding?

  1. #21
    Shrimpy Lover hyoushoku's Avatar
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    I was on tap water before. Without purigen, it does make my sensitive shrimp unhappy and higher death rate. Below are the different thresholds of water change % I figured out through trial and error.
    - Tap water with dechlorinator: max at 20%
    - Filtered Water with dechlorinator (with activated carbon and ceramic membrane; mineral retained): max at 40%
    - RO / DI: max at 80% (any higher will stress the shrimp due to water level dropped and not water condition changes)

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    I only keep neocaridina cherries and rilis so I don't have a problem using the tap . There is an army of shrimplets, especially after I removed a hitchhiker platy fry that I must have moved with the floating plants. I noticed it hunting in the moss

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    Quote Originally Posted by hyoushoku View Post
    How about Eheim Aquaball or Pickup? I like to use them due to it has air venturi inlet for me to pump air during lights off.

    However for 30L tank, using a internal filter may require you to change water very frequently. Therefore, I still suggest for a external filter instead.
    note the fish tank has a 5.5 inch/13.97 cm opening and the corners are all curved making only a canister filter. I am keeping shrimp that do not need high waterflow, And my water parameters, ammonia, nitrite, nitrite the works are all undetectable, I just need something to keep the babies out, I preform ample water changes, and am not worried about them. honestly 30L for a maximum of 10 shrimp is a perfect environment. I am going to stick with the fluval u1, because mainly it is less expensive than the other brands, functions well, and is locally available. also it will not take up space in the tank, this is my show tank I try hard to keep it looking good for display, without making the inhabitants suffer for it.

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    Shrimpy Lover hyoushoku's Avatar
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    Hi ro smith,

    In this case and if you just want surface movement, why don't try a power head instead and use back you existing modified filter. Hydor has a new nano powerhead or you can use the Tunze mini pump.

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    Shrimpy Lover hyoushoku's Avatar
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    Hi ro smith,

    Sorry for OOT to talk about Purigen. If you are not OK with it, let me know and I will start a new thread.

    Hi Shrimpletess,

    I just nice have a newly setup but stable 1 plus month tank to test out the theory you mentioned about Purigen. Since it is newly setup, it has decent amount of organics and I had yet to put in Purigen.

    My this tank is controlled by GHL Profilux 3.1N Ex. Thus, I have pH, Conductivity, Temperature and ORP (Oxidation/Reduction Potential) probe in it. The theory mentioned is about Redox (Reduction / Oxidation), which the ORP Probe will be able to tell part of the story. The Purigen is used in a semi-fluidized method, thus it wil have pretty good effect.

    Test Condition 1
    - pH: 6.1 +-0.1
    - GH: 5
    - KH: < 1
    - Without Purigen

    Result : Redox was reading at 450mV +-30mV. When I add my daily fertilizer (0.3% of E.I. and split into 2 times a day), Redox is at about 300+mV. The Redox is bounce back to 450mV after 2 hours. I dose my fertilizers, including Flourish Excel one by one with 10 minutes interval and discovered that only Nitrate and Trace causes the Redox to increase and decrease respectively. I checked the history in the controller, the Redox seems to climb 2 to 5mV per day.

    Test Condition 2
    - pH: 6.1 +-0.1
    - GH: 5
    - KH: < 1
    - With Purigen (I run for about a week)

    Result : Same behaviour as without Purigen.

    I went to study more on ORP and discovered that ORP is inverse proportionally related to pH. The more acidic the water, the more H- ions, which is higher in oxidizing. During my research, I also discovered that Reducing agent are mainly substances that can transfer electron, such as calcium, Manganese, etc. Oxidizing agents are substance that can accept electrons, such as O2, Cl2, F2, Br2, etc. Nitrate and nitric acid are oxidizer and carbon is reducer.

    So the next test condition I did is with lower pH and I did it by increasing my CO2 via my controller.

    Test Condition 3
    - pH: 5.9 +-0.1
    - GH: 5
    - KH: < 1
    - Without Purigen

    Result : Redox was reading at 540mV +-30mV. When I add my daily fertilizer (0.3% of E.I. and split into 2 times a day), Redox is at about 400+mV. The Redox is bounce back to 540mV after only 30 minutes.

    Test Condition 4
    - pH: 5.9 +-0.1
    - GH: 5
    - KH: < 1
    - With Purigen

    Result : Same behaviour as without Purigen.

    I added another test with and without Purigen. I added 1ml per 20L of Shirakura Black Water Fluvo+ (Humic and Fulvic acid). There is zero fluctuation of the Redox level.

    After all these tests, I can conclude a few things:
    - The stabilizer ORP level highly depending on the pH level. Any additional oxidizing or reducing agents will only cause a temporary fluctuation. How long the fluctuation will be stabilized is depending on your oxidizing potential of the acidity of your water.
    - The ORP probe is using AgCl probe similar to pH probe construction, thus it measure H+ ORP but not other such as Flourish Excel is a strong reducing agent but it does not show any effect when I add it into the water.
    - Carbon is a reducing agent and Trace elements are reducing agents too. Thus, absorbing the Carbon will not affect the trace element.
    - However, absorbing organic material that will produce nitrate and nitric acid, which are oxidizing agents, will have effect on oxidizing the trace elements. But look at this way, we do not want the water to be very oxidizing, especially our shrimp tank water is already acidic that has high oxidizing level. What we need are more anti-oxidant, which is reducing agent. Thus, reducing organics from producing nitrate and nitric acid will help slow down on increment of the oxidizing level.
    - Most fresh water shrimps are from soft water environment. Soft water generally has 200 to 600mV Redox level, thus how do they survive? I think it got to do with the amount of calcium they consume. Their cell structure will leverage calcium as an anti-oxidant just like some of human cells.

    I will further monitor the effect on using Purigen and see whether it can slow down the climbing of Redox level.

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    It still doesn't explain anything. For example the process of converting ammonia to nitrIte is an oxidizing process, making the water acidic. But we don't want to decrease the oxygen for examle in order to prevent that? Why, because oxygen is important, and of course nitrification itself. We just make sure the tank isn't overstocked and is well maintained so the amounts of ammonia produced and converted don't affect the Ph and cause what's called "an old tank syndrome" when the water becomes so acidic, that the KH can't buffer it anymore and the Ph crashes, causing a cease in nitrification, since the AOA/AOB and AON are inhibited at a Ph lower than 6/6.5.
    And when we do a water change to reduce the organics which in turn will turn into ammonia, which in turn will go through an oxygizing process in order to get converted to nitrIte, we still may add our almond leaves or similar stuff that increases the amount of humic substances. Humic substances in turn are responsible for chelating metals like iron, copper, etc.. which is the process of making them non-toxic to shrimp and even fish when in the water column.
    On another hand, purigen not only reduces the original organic that may turn into ammonia, but reduces humic substances that play an improtant role(like tannins for example although that's not the only one), so from what I undestand, it's just a double edge sword. It may do as bad as it does good in a shrimp tank as they aren't so tolerant of higher metal content for example and I think that's what was meant about purigen not being suitable for shrimp tanks as it can cause a disaster with the right conditions. Especially if you are dosing extra fertilizers or you are using tap water rich in metals.

    Read for example what happens to Iron in the water:

    http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/ferrous-ferric

  7. #27
    Shrimpy Lover hyoushoku's Avatar
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    So you are talking about chelation. No wonder you find what I tested is useless.

    Actually, chelating is not just done by organic acid. There are too many chemicals in the water and organic acids are some of them. Thus, what you describe is partially right. Furthermore, Purigen only absorb whatever is in the water column but there are still a lot of waste in / on the substrate. Thus, there are some organic acids left to chelate iron before it is absorb into Purigen, which the combined substance can't be absorb by Purigen. Look at this way, the amount of waste verses the amount of iron dosed, there are way more than Purigen can absorb.

    I think why my tanks are good is that I use Excel, which chelate trace too and the iron & trace I dosed are already chelated EDTA. Thus, it should not make much difference.

    By the way, I want to reduce oxidation level doesn't mean reducing oxygen level. I just want to reduce the oxidant by having reducer or anti-oxidant. Too high oxidation level will cause cells to premature aging or die and bacteria will not flourish properly.

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    First of all, you need to know what exactly Purigen absorbs. So all of it, including your points, are just a theory. I gave the oxygen example just to try to explain that removing one thing has consequences. Obviously no one is going to be removing oxygen from an aquarium if that's how you understood it
    And then again, back to chelation, metals are only dangerous when in the water column and meet the right conditions. When in the sediment, they aren't toxic exactly for that same reason that there's organics/waste there.

    On another note, personally purigen hasn't done anything to my tanks that I could see. I only put it because of reviews around but I wonder what has it been doing exactly, because I can't experience it, nor see it. In my shrimp tank, I tried it and took it off afterwards. It made no difference either way, bad or good.

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    New Member MarcosKenzo's Avatar
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    Just curious. is Purigen really good for shrimps?

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    Shrimpy Lover hyoushoku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcosKenzo View Post
    Just curious. is Purigen really good for shrimps?
    No solid evident stating Purigen is good or bad. Most people use Purigen is to polish the water, not that much on aggressively removing nitrate or organic. Hence, it is not really targeting on Shrimp's well being.

    FYI. I have been using it with shrimps for years, they are doing fine.

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