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plober
27th May 2008, 12:38 AM
Are there other purposes with changing water, except for decrease nitrate level, in shrimp tank?

altoids
27th May 2008, 05:43 AM
ammonia, PH control, cloudy water.... ect:
:)

Xmant
8th Jun 2008, 12:20 AM
How long do you guys change the water and what is the percentage?

Martin Schellinck
8th Jun 2008, 02:37 AM
I do 1/3 to 1/4 water changes once a week. You can get away with doing them less frequent, depending on what you have in the tank (shrimp, plants) and how good your filtration is. I had a tank with plants and guppies only which went a year without water changes, just adding water. But, it eventually reached a point where the ammonia was too high and had to do a heavy cleaning.

mr sandman
9th Jun 2008, 04:53 AM
1/3 water changes per week which helps decrease water hardness.

altoids
9th Jun 2008, 09:37 AM
1/3 water change
usually 50% tap, and 50% RO

but i use only tap water recently bc my ADA soil keeps the ph at 6.2 so i raise it to 6.5. my tap water is about 7.5 or so

Obama
10th Jun 2008, 07:26 PM
is cloudy water bad for shrimps. i noticed of my two tanks, one is more cloudy than the others but it doesn't seem to have much of an impact on the shrimps.

Do dwarf shrimps (malayans in this case) live in crystal clear water in the wild?

TitoC
10th Jun 2008, 09:42 PM
ammonia, cloudy water.... ect:
:)

these 2 should not be fought by changing water but by filtration imo. Without a durable solution it's mopping with the tap open as we say...

besides this should not be an issue with a shrimp tank, as the tank was of course cycled weeks before.

TitoC
10th Jun 2008, 09:48 PM
But, it eventually reached a point where the ammonia was too high and had to do a heavy cleaning.

That's another thing. Without changing just water, a tank does not stay healthy forever, unless it has very few inhabitants, and there is little feeding.
You have to clean out the filter sponges and the gravel to remove a lot of organic material before it starts rotting, or worse, clogging the filter so it stops breaking down the ammonia.

Anyway, I had a platy tank too, and the ammonia just rose proportional with the number of fish. If ammonia would accumulate over time, all fish and shrimp would be dead in 24 hours. It does of course in a tank without a biofilter or one that is just set-up.

TitoC
10th Jun 2008, 09:51 PM
1/3 water changes per week which helps decrease water hardness.

this is assuming that there is a source of carbonates/minerals in the tank, or that there is a lot evaporation.
In the first case, just remove the rocks etc.
In case of evaporation, if you just top up with distilled/osmosis water, you can go with a lot less.

TitoC
10th Jun 2008, 09:54 PM
this is what I do lately: http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/showthread.php/need-some-help-3076p3.html

I must say there are a lot illogical notions on water changing coming out here.

Xmant
11th Jun 2008, 12:58 AM
IMO, there are good and bad for doing water change too frequent.

Advantages
1. Help to reduce the polluted waste.
2. Replace lost nutrients taken up by shrimps and plants.

Disadvantages
1. Shrimps have to be constantly re-adapted to the different water parameters.
2. If the replaced water is not close to the tank parameters before change, shrimps will be a step closer to the heaven.:cry:
3. Shrimps will feel stress and loose of coloration.


I think I will stick to this new rules.
1. Monitor Ammonia & Nitrate level.
2. If they are high, then it would be the best time to get water change.
3. At the same time, monitor the pH, kH and gH once per week. Make sure they are within the safe parameters.
4. Re-adjust the water parameters without changing the tank water
if the water parameters are out and still passes the ammonia and nitrate safe level.

Frank
11th Jun 2008, 03:32 AM
I have learned one thing since I started this beautifull hobby: Aquaristic does not work for lazy people.
In the beginning I was lazy with the water changings and got many problems.
With constant work and basic knowledge you donīt have to buy so many new animals and plants. ;)

Xmant
11th Jun 2008, 01:42 PM
Truely agreed with you, Frank.

Shrimp keeping required even more attention than keeping fish.
Have to observe them daily. If found out something not usual, one has to react fast and remedy the situation.

jackqaz
11th Jun 2008, 01:55 PM
Agree with you guys, we can spot problems though careful observations & implement the solutions fast.

However, frequent WC that disturb the substrate especially ADA, will most definitely kill your shrimps. By replacing the water with RO water, removes the necessary supplement for healthy plant growth and shrimp molting. So adding liquid mineral supplements are necessary for some of us.

Life is all about balance.;)

TitoC
11th Jun 2008, 10:08 PM
Sure. But what was the thing that made the difference Frank? Changing water per se? Or siphoning the gravel, cleaning the filter sponges, reducing the amount of organic material etc?
For me there are 2 lines between
measurable parameters and scientifically proven elements on the one hand
---
common-sense assumptions or educated guesses in the middle
---
and hocus pocus ignorance on the far end.

For instance


However, frequent WC that disturb the substrate especially ADA, will most definitely kill your shrimps.

what is killing the shrimp then? the sudden drop in pH because the soil leaches acids or something? or H2S which builds up in the anaerobic gravel?
or were you doing frequent water changes because something was wrong with the shrimp in the first place? etc.



the necessary supplement for healthy plant growth and shrimp molting. So adding liquid mineral supplements are necessary for some of us.
Life is all about balance.;)

I'm writing a book chapter on shrimp molting for the moment, and have to say that not even for commercial shrimp, it is known which are all the necessary supplements for shrimp molting. For sure they will not all be present in any commercial product for the moment. I did read a lot that crystal shrimp do poor when the water is too rich in minerals..

Of course we have to keep the small ecosystem which is an aquarium in balance, but do water changes really contribute to that, or do they actually up-set the balance? For most of the elements we can only guess how it is going on. Adding more supplements to the water than are needed might just cause accumulation and problems which then need more water changes...

I'm not saying you're wrong jack (as I can't provide evidence against/for many claims due to lack of knowledge), but let's try to back-up the things we say/think with something solid. For instance if you would measure the pH after disturbing the ADA, that would prove something.

Most people are changing water "just in case" for the moment, while they might have to work on other things going wrong in the aquaria.

Sorry to be a bore.

Xmant
12th Jun 2008, 12:01 AM
That's why keeping shrimp is so challenging.

jackqaz
12th Jun 2008, 12:01 AM
Titoc,

Hey dude, you are making an active discussion sounding like a challenge.>( Perhaps you could've kindly ask why I've made the statements, and I can return you the favor. After all, we are all here to share our experiences and knowledge.


Sorry to be a bore.
At least you are aware.

TitoC
12th Jun 2008, 12:40 AM
Sorry, I just get frustrated with reading claims which are unsupported or just untrue. The discussion we had on surface layers last month is a good example. I don't see the point of having a discussion on basic knowledge, when the actual knowledge is not put out there.
If you know for sure if/how the ADA soil kills shrimp, why don't you just write it?

Beginners are killing shrimp everyday because they are not getting enough real info from forums.


After all, we are all here to share our experiences and knowledge.

Frank
12th Jun 2008, 01:20 AM
Sure. But what was the thing that made the difference Frank? Changing water per se? Or siphoning the gravel, cleaning the filter sponges, reducing the amount of organic material etc?
For me there are 2 lines between
measurable parameters and scientifically proven elements on the one hand


Every tank is different. You have to find the right way. A WC of 50% each day is as worst as no WC at all. You get rid of exhausted substances and reduce the amount of bad substances. I donīt like to keep my inverts in too high nitrate levels. On the other hand the tapwater is not biological, what is needed for successful keeping. My personal rule is 30 to 40% weekly and in non overcrowded tanks with good filtration itīs not too bad to suspend a week sometimes.
There are many factors on what a WC depends:
- Tanksize
- inhabitants/quantity
- plants (to reduce nitrate)
- feeding / kind of food
- water parameters (hardness and nitrate for example)
and whatever :undecided
Most of the people change 30% every week and I do the same. I donīt siphon the gravel because inverts find food in the dirt. You know my tanks, it would be hard to clean. ;)
When I notice that the tank does not work well I rebuild and clean everything.
Filters/prefilters are cleaned when the outflow is less than 50% of normal.
With frequent WC I donīt have to measure any parameters. That would be more work and could measure every day to find the best moment. Beside that I have more than 1 tank. :D

jackqaz
12th Jun 2008, 01:57 AM
At this moment, I can understand your frustrations. I'm rather lazy at typing long posts.:cheesy: Now I'm doing it for you..

Regarding on the oily surface caused by bacteria, we can keep things simple through logical deductions. If that oily surface covers the whole tank water surface, gas molecules would've penetrate through this oily medium. Some smaller gas molecules (low atomic mass & radius) would've no issues in penetrating through the medium. The medium depending on it's permeability and thickness would impede the rate of diffusion of larger molecules. As a result, some gases can be exchanged, some just simply cannot diffuse through. Hence why not we take away this medium. Personally I've not seen any healthy freshwater rivers covered with oily surface as such. Even a mosquito larva needs to be equipped with a breathing tube in a stagnant pool of water.

Whether disturbing ADA substrate cause shrimp deaths, is basically based on my experience. I happened to have unknowingly performed an experiment. Recently I do a 10%WC, with most of the fresh water splashing into my filter medium. My filter medium includes a bag of ADA2 and some low grade CRS, cherries & tigers. The filter compartment became very murky of course. Then a series of CRS deaths occur in the filter compartment, and none in my main tank. Reason of deaths might be due to small particle clots, pH drop or H2S as you suggest, but I'm no anatomist to confirm it. Maybe you'd like to perform your own experiments and share it with us.:)

As for molting issues, no one exactly confirm the exact composition of minerals that CRS requires. So I've to trust our Japaneses pioneers. Even the mosura mineral plus product gives a very rough guide to the amount required for the tank. Hence, whether to add mineral supplements is case to case basis, depending on individual tank needs since everyone's tank is different.(ie. substrate, mineral-leaching rocks, rate of flow, types of plants and animals) Some minerals might be in high demand due to the type of plants and animals you keep, then you'd need specific dose if that affects the molting of CRS. Unless you happen to be chemist, so you can prepare the right cocktail of minerals for each tank. Ultimately if the CRS are molting healthily, I see no point in making drastic alterations to kH/GH by adding supplements.

Titoc, chill man. I hope you like this post.:cool:

TitoC
13th Jun 2008, 06:34 PM
:2thumbsup
now we're getting somewhere ;)
but i'll take it easy (bit stressed with work lately, i'll take your advice:beatnik2:)
I have never used ADA, but a lot of crs keepers do, so I was wondering how it could be dangerous. The fact that your tank had no problems, but the filter did, points more to a (temperature?) shock of the water change.
Or a sudden release of a toxic substance. But then there had to be a layer of anaerobic sludge. And if your filter was still connected, the shrimp in the tank should have showed it probably.
To implicate the ADA would be weird as now I see that it must have been irrigated inside the filter. Sounds like there was no way something could build up in it? Except detritus apparently, but that can not really clog the gills of shrimp to my knowledge.
How fast did the shrimp die in the filter?

As for the mineral, Frank told me that Japanese (as most Asians) take very soft (rain/stream) water and then have to supplement the water with some kind of minerals to keep the shrimp healthy. A buddy of mine used the Japanese clay that is marketed for this purpose, but the mud did more bad than good he says. But yeah, we're stuck in this discussion as long as we don't know what the water parameters are of the natural environment of bee shrimp. The only thing we can do is mimic the conditions of the breeders where we get our shrimp and hope they were right... I just don't like the idea of walking into the silly trap that you need to add some expensive mixture of mombojombo to keep a shrimp which is perfectly happy with some tap water.

jackqaz
14th Jun 2008, 12:50 AM
Ok cool:cool:, now we are moving forward..

Before WC, i'll usually add ice and cold water to fresh water. In SG, the water is usually higher than my tank's temp, unless it rains very heavily for some time. I keep my tank at about 25-27 degrees, with fans. Then I'll add the water into the filter compartment by 1/3 portions in the span of 90mins. Hence, both temperature and pH/kH shock is rather unlikely. That day i wasn't mindful of my ADA soil in my filter, and unknowingly carried out the experiment. In the filter system, the 2x CRS fell on the 1st day, and the 3rd CRS passed away one day after. So what can we deduce from this result? I remember reading one more thread in this forum of sharing the same experience.

Actually I left the excess 2x bags of ADA soil in my filter compartment, planning for my next tank setup. So it's more of a look ahead move. Anyway, the amount of surface area they provided attributed to good BB growth.

Yes i agree on the mineral part, most breeders keep the water as soft as kH 0-1. Their CRS molting was not a problem, and high grades of solid-colored CRS can be produced. Hence, GH is the one we are looking into. Even by adjusting GH exactly like the breeders, the exact proportion of minerals that constitute to this GH is unknown. So as long as my CRS are breeding healthily, I'll just stand by my own formula I'm sure every1 here has their own style in their shrimp keeping. In my opinion, that's the fun part.:cheesy:

fishcop444
29th Jul 2008, 03:54 PM
I would think if you disturb the substrate of ANY aged aquarium it could cause problems depending on how much sludge is contained in it. I don't see why ADA soil is any different.

As for water changes, it depends on your bioload and many other considerations. Many trace minerals are contained in tap water (including Calcium, important for shrimp and plants). Unless you are dosing fertilizers and trace minerals, a water change can best provide these trace materials. Everyone should find out what is in their local tap water so they can compensate if necessary. Maybe some tap water is mineral deficient? Then you could have problems. I would say, regular water changes for most people is a good rule to follow unless you are very knowledgeable/confident about your water details...I notice that after a water change in one of my planted tanks, the HC really begins to pearl O2 for a day or two, so that's good! I think there is a trace element that the water change provides to make the photosynthesis really kick in.

discusdubai
31st Jul 2008, 07:36 AM
Im Learning a Lot from this thread...Pls keep them flowing..=)

a1matt
9th Mar 2009, 08:54 PM
I notice that after a water change in one of my planted tanks, the HC really begins to pearl O2 for a day or two, so that's good! I think there is a trace element that the water change provides to make the photosynthesis really kick in.

I believe that the pearling you are experiencing after a water change is most likely due to an increase in CO2 levels. (I do not disagree that your tap may also be providing nutrients).

I have a healthy planted tank that does not require regular water changes as the plants absorb any toxic buildup. This is helped by having a low bioload, strong filtration (canister rated at 1200lph on a 160litre), low lights, and lots of plants that are regularly fed (with pot nitrate, pot phoshpate, and a trace mix) to keep them healthy.

I want to avoid water changes for as long as possible, not out of laziness, but because the fluctuating CO2 levels can induce algae.

I currently have about 4 Amano shrimp in my tank (and 10 small fish all an inch long or less). I plan on adding 15 snowballs and 10 'green' dwarf shrimp (sold as Caridina Babaulti) in the coming weeks. I am hoping they will breed and I am looking forward to my tank 'going shrimp crazy :cheesy:.' I would not dream of trying any more 'advanced' shrimp just yet....

I hope that my lack of water changes will not have a negative effect on the new shrimp. My amanos molt regularly without me adding any calcium or supplements. Personally I would never take supplements, instead relying on a healthy diet to provide my body what it needs. I inflict the same values on my shrimp :D

louuu
23rd Apr 2009, 12:47 AM
Hi... can any experienced shrimp keepers advise whether it is safe to do water change with berried CRS in the tanks? thanks...