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dkk08
13th Apr 2005, 08:30 PM
Hi guys, I'm suddenly having this prob with my 3ft shrimp tank, shrimps have been found dead over the past 3 days (abt 3-5 each day)... I really don't know what's going on as I didn't do any major rescape (only a minor trimming of stem plants last week) and alternate days of topping up water due to evaporation....

I don't even feed everyday, feeding them a mixture of Azoo 9in1 Discus pellet(red) and Sera Discus "Blue" color food on alternate days... Anyway the following is my tank perimeters I just took, seems kinda bad to me thou:

NH3: 0-0.25
PH: 6
No2: 0
KH: 2-3dkh
Lights: 4x36W PLL 10hrs
Co2: 3-4 bps
Temp: 22-26 deg cel

Guys I need your expertise and advice

simcb
13th Apr 2005, 10:27 PM
Hi guys, I'm suddenly having this prob with my 3ft shrimp tank, shrimps have been found dead over the past 3 days (abt 3-5 each day)... I really don't know what's going on as I didn't do any major rescape (only a minor trimming of stem plants last week) and alternate days of topping up water due to evaporation....

I don't even feed everyday, feeding them a mixture of Azoo 9in1 Discus pellet(red) and Sera Discus "Blue" color food on alternate days... Anyway the following is my tank perimeters I just took, seems kinda bad to me thou:

NH3: 0-0.25
PH: 6
No2: 0
KH: 2-3dkh
Lights: 4x36W PLL 10hrs
Co2: 3-4 bps
Temp: 22-26 deg cel

Guys I need your expertise and advice


Ph 6??? BTW what shrimps is in your shrimp tank? I guess only ghost and cherries can survive at ph 6 but will be very stress.

silane
13th Apr 2005, 10:44 PM
Another thing is ammonia need to be 0.

dkk08
15th Apr 2005, 02:24 AM
Ph 6??? BTW what shrimps is in your shrimp tank? I guess only ghost and cherries can survive at ph 6 but will be very stress.

I also don't know why Ph 6. Its kinda werid... unless tarin from the DW is affecting the PH... how to raise Ph anyway?

And yes you're right about cherries surviving, coz so far Cherries and CRS has zero or lowest casulties :undecided

dkk08
15th Apr 2005, 02:25 AM
Another thing is ammonia need to be 0.

Well the test kit looks like a 0 to me but I just sorta play safe so I quoted 0-0.25 :p

gnome
15th Apr 2005, 02:41 AM
Looks like your KH is a little low, which can result in a pH crash. I suggest you raise the KH to around 4 or 5 using baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) or calcium carbonate. Either will elevate the KH (and pH as a result), but calcium carbonate will also raise GH, which you didn't give a value for. Your other option is to decrease your CO2 bubble rate until your pH is reading steady at around 6.8.

If your tank is heavily planted and not *too* overloaded with fish, I think it's safe to assume that your ammonia is zero.

What having that low a pH can do is to make certain trace elements very toxic at even very low levels. Also, check the ingredients on the food to make sure it doesn't contain copper. I like to give my shrimp Hikari Tropical Crab Cuisine because they love it, and it contains calcium iodate, which seems to benefit them. It's good for snails, too - keeps their shells nice and shiny.

Hope the situation improves. It's sad to see shrimp die, I know :( .

-Naomi

simcb
15th Apr 2005, 09:28 AM
I also don't know why Ph 6. Its kinda werid... unless tarin from the DW is affecting the PH... how to raise Ph anyway?

And yes you're right about cherries surviving, coz so far Cherries and CRS has zero or lowest casulties :undecided

Hi dkk08,

Try not to feed shrimp industrial colored food you are using for you discus(i think there isnt any calcium iodate)...might be senstive to the chemicals too.....especially bees and tigers. Use food with high calcium iodate like what gnome mentioned over a long period of time without calcium iodate, they will start dying.

To raise the Ph&KH&GH slowly, for tanks with shrimps already in, use dead coral chips easily available in most local fish shop. 1 small piece for 2ft and below. 2-3 piece for 3ft and above. Using coral chips helps maintain ph at slightly acidic if your tank has co2(running high) and reduce PH shock during water change.

It is an estimative method, therefore got to test the Ph/kh increase over every 3 days until u are confident of the dosage u are applying.(fine tune accordingly by adding/removing 1-2 pieces or reduce Co2 input)

Water change is required frequently will help reduced KH,GH and maintain them as the desired level. If you look closely coral chips has a rough surface which can also help act as a Benefical bacteria medium too.

Hope it helps :)

silane
15th Apr 2005, 10:51 AM
Looks like your KH is a little low, which can result in a pH crash. I suggest you raise the KH to around 4 or 5 using baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) or calcium carbonate.

I prefer using calcium carbonate (as tablet or as coral chip) as calcium is needed by Crustacea for its extoskeleton. I am quite hestiate to use sodium bicarbonate because of introducing sodium into the water. Do you have any idea if shrimps has problem with increase concentration of sodium?

gnome
15th Apr 2005, 12:50 PM
I prefer using calcium carbonate (as tablet or as coral chip) as calcium is needed by Crustacea for its extoskeleton. I am quite hestiate to use sodium bicarbonate because of introducing sodium ion into water. Do you have any idea if shrimps has problem when high concentration of sodium in water?

Yes, I prefer CaCO3 when I want to raise GH and KH. In a shrimp-only tank, this is the best thing to use, IMHO (I use the powdered form called "precipitated chalk" which is available here at home-brew supplying companies, but crushed coral is fine, too). Avid planted tank hobbyists will sometimes want better control of one or both of these parameters, so they'll use something like gypsum (CaSO4) and epsom salt (MgSO4*7H20) if they only want to raise GH; or if it's KH one wants to raise, without increasing GH, then sodium bicarbonate is typically added. Sodium bicarbonate is not a problem except in the *softest* of water. As it was once explained somewhere, living cells need 2+ ions to "balance" the 1+ ions (sorry, I wasn't a biology major so I don't know the details on this). If the TDS is very low, then even a small increase in sodium (Na+) can cause damage. But if the TDS is moderate to high, the effects of sodium (at least in the amounts that would be added with sodium bicarbonate to raise KH a little bit) would be insignificant. I managed to find potassium bicarbonate from the home-brew supplier, but it's more expensive than baking soda. Plants, of course, benefit from K+ so in this respect, it's a nice alternative to baking soda.

I hope somewhere, in that long explanation, I answered your question :p :D

-Naomi

dkk08
15th Apr 2005, 11:45 PM
Yes, I prefer CaCO3 when I want to raise GH and KH. In a shrimp-only tank, this is the best thing to use, IMHO (I use the powdered form called "precipitated chalk" which is available here at home-brew supplying companies, but crushed coral is fine, too). Avid planted tank hobbyists will sometimes want better control of one or both of these parameters, so they'll use something like gypsum (CaSO4) and epsom salt (MgSO4*7H20) if they only want to raise GH; or if it's KH one wants to raise, without increasing GH, then sodium bicarbonate is typically added. Sodium bicarbonate is not a problem except in the *softest* of water. As it was once explained somewhere, living cells need 2+ ions to "balance" the 1+ ions (sorry, I wasn't a biology major so I don't know the details on this). If the TDS is very low, then even a small increase in sodium (Na+) can cause damage. But if the TDS is moderate to high, the effects of sodium (at least in the amounts that would be added with sodium bicarbonate to raise KH a little bit) would be insignificant. I managed to find potassium bicarbonate from the home-brew supplier, but it's more expensive than baking soda. Plants, of course, benefit from K+ so in this respect, it's a nice alternative to baking soda.

I hope somewhere, in that long explanation, I answered your question :p :D

-Naomi

Whoa Naomi, I'm bowled over by the technical as well as scientifically termed explanation... (I'm quite a failure in chemistry) so I'll try n understand what you're explaning :p

dkk08
15th Apr 2005, 11:48 PM
Hi dkk08,

Try not to feed shrimp industrial colored food you are using for you discus(i think there isnt any calcium iodate)...might be senstive to the chemicals too.....especially bees and tigers. Use food with high calcium iodate like what gnome mentioned over a long period of time without calcium iodate, they will start dying.

To raise the Ph&KH&GH slowly, for tanks with shrimps already in, use dead coral chips easily available in most local fish shop. 1 small piece for 2ft and below. 2-3 piece for 3ft and above. Using coral chips helps maintain ph at slightly acidic if your tank has co2(running high) and reduce PH shock during water change.

It is an estimative method, therefore got to test the Ph/kh increase over every 3 days until u are confident of the dosage u are applying.(fine tune accordingly by adding/removing 1-2 pieces or reduce Co2 input)

Water change is required frequently will help reduced KH,GH and maintain them as the desired level. If you look closely coral chips has a rough surface which can also help act as a Benefical bacteria medium too.

Hope it helps :)

Hi Sim, I'll find a few pc of coral chips to throw in the tank and update back here... as for the food, there's no written ingredient/elements of copper on the food packaging...

gnome
16th Apr 2005, 12:54 AM
Whoa Naomi, I'm bowled over by the technical as well as scientifically termed explanation... (I'm quite a failure in chemistry) so I'll try n understand what you're explaning :p

Hehe!!! Sorry - I have a chemistry background, but not a biology one. If you want to read more about it, you can find the post at Aquatic Plants Digest, author is Wright Huntley, and it's called "pH. Some facts and some mythology." Written Mon, 08 Sep 2003 (sorry, they don't let me hyperlink, here, for some reason).

The short answer to the question, "will sodium bicarbonate cause harm (from the addition of sodium)?" is: it is usually fine unless the water is *very* soft. And with water that soft, it will be good to harden it (both GH and KH) a little with calcium carbonate (crushed coral, precipitated chalk, etc.), instead.

Okay? :)

-Naomi

dkk08
16th Apr 2005, 02:42 AM
Hehe!!! Sorry - I have a chemistry background, but not a biology one. If you want to read more about it, you can find the post at Aquatic Plants Digest, author is Wright Huntley, and it's called "pH. Some facts and some mythology." Written Mon, 08 Sep 2003 (sorry, they don't let me hyperlink, here, for some reason).

The short answer to the question, "will sodium bicarbonate cause harm (from the addition of sodium)?" is: it is usually fine unless the water is *very* soft. And with water that soft, it will be good to harden it (both GH and KH) a little with calcium carbonate (crushed coral, precipitated chalk, etc.), instead.

Okay? :)

-Naomi

another question, I've this Bicarbonate of Soda which I used to make DIY Co2, is it the same as the sodium bicarbonate? If it is how much should I add? 2.5ml, 5ml or how much?

gnome
16th Apr 2005, 02:48 AM
another question, I've this Bicarbonate of Soda which I used to make DIY Co2, is it the same as the sodium bicarbonate? If it is how much should I add? 2.5ml, 5ml or how much?

Should be the same... Is it the kind you use for cooking? If it is, that's it. Before you add it, what is your GH? If the GH is very low, use the coral, instead.

-Naomi

dkk08
16th Apr 2005, 02:55 AM
Should be the same... Is it the kind you use for cooking? If it is, that's it. Before you add it, what is your GH? If the GH is very low, use the coral, instead.

-Naomi

Hi Naomi its early morning over here in Sunny Singapore :D 3am and yes I'm still awake and need to wake up early to go to work... but I just can't get any sleep lately from the shrimp tank prob... anyway just tested the GH its between 3-5 dgh and Ph have risen to 6.4...

oh yes its those we use for cooking aka baking soda... so how much should I add? 2.5ml (1 small tea spoon)? :undecided

gnome
16th Apr 2005, 03:19 AM
Hi Naomi its early morning over here in Sunny Singapore :D 3am and yes I'm still awake and need to wake up early to go to work... but I just can't get any sleep lately from the shrimp tank prob... anyway just tested the GH its between 3-5 dgh and Ph have risen to 6.4...

oh yes its those we use for cooking aka baking soda... so how much should I add? 2.5ml (1 small tea spoon)? :undecided

Yeah - hard to sleep, thinking, "how many dead shrimp will I find in the morning?" :cry:
I understand, I have bad luck with shrimp sometimes, too...

I'll look up a dosage, but first, I need to know approximately how many gallons (or liters, if this is easier for you). I know you said "3 ft. tank" but most of the measurements here are done by gallons. Might you know?

-Naomi

gnome
16th Apr 2005, 04:19 AM
Ah - here we go. This is the formula I found:

1 teaspoon added to 50 liters of water will raise the KH by 4 degrees.

So if 50 liters = about 13 gallons, and you only want to raise the KH by about 2, I think you'd be aiming for *approximately* 1 teaspoon for every 25 gallons of water. I would do this in two parts... Start by adding *half* of the total amount you're aiming for (dissolving it first and adding it gradually), wait a few hours, then TEST. See if it indeed raised the KH by 1 degree. TEST pH. If the results are good, add a second dose. I think a KH of 4-5 should be what you're going for. A KH in this range and pH in 6.7-6.9 range will put your CO2 level at the 20-30ppm range, which is perfect for plants and acceptable for critters. The numbers you have now, 6.4 pH and 2-3 degree KH puts your CO2 level off the chart (at least the one I refer to) and will stress out all animal life in your tank (though some can tolerate it better than others - did you have any fish gasping at the surface when the pH was 6.0?).

If you want to further raise the KH beyond 4-5, I really think you should consider using coral, or the sodium from the soda might start to have adverse effects on plants AND critters in your tank.

Good luck and please keep us posted on what's happening.

-Naomi

dkk08
16th Apr 2005, 07:46 AM
Ah - here we go. This is the formula I found:

1 teaspoon added to 50 liters of water will raise the KH by 4 degrees.

So if 50 liters = about 13 gallons, and you only want to raise the KH by about 2, I think you'd be aiming for *approximately* 1 teaspoon for every 25 gallons of water. I would do this in two parts... Start by adding *half* of the total amount you're aiming for (dissolving it first and adding it gradually), wait a few hours, then TEST. See if it indeed raised the KH by 1 degree. TEST pH. If the results are good, add a second dose. I think a KH of 4-5 should be what you're going for. A KH in this range and pH in 6.7-6.9 range will put your CO2 level at the 20-30ppm range, which is perfect for plants and acceptable for critters. The numbers you have now, 6.4 pH and 2-3 degree KH puts your CO2 level off the chart (at least the one I refer to) and will stress out all animal life in your tank (though some can tolerate it better than others - did you have any fish gasping at the surface when the pH was 6.0?).

If you want to further raise the KH beyond 4-5, I really think you should consider using coral, or the sodium from the soda might start to have adverse effects on plants AND critters in your tank.

Good luck and please keep us posted on what's happening.

-Naomi

Hmmmm ok my tank size is 3ft by 18in by 18in, how much is that in gallons?

Well none of my fishes ever gasp for air from the surface which is one reason I find it weird too... my plants are still growing very well I mean I've plants like Pellia, Eriocuolon, Toninas and even Erect Moss but none are browning and all are growing very well

Anyway I'll do the gradual increase of KH with baking soda and update the results later in the day... gotta rush off to work now... thanks for the advice again Naomi :)

gnome
16th Apr 2005, 08:03 AM
Hmmmm ok my tank size is 3ft by 18in by 18in, how much is that in gallons?

Well none of my fishes ever gasp for air from the surface which is one reason I find it weird too... my plants are still growing very well I mean I've plants like Pellia, Eriocuolon, Toninas and even Erect Moss but none are browning and all are growing very well

Anyway I'll do the gradual increase of KH with baking soda and update the results later in the day... gotta rush off to work now... thanks for the advice again Naomi :)

Sounds like you have a 40-gallon tank or thereabouts. But you probably want to find out for sure before you do *anything*. Hmmm... Pellia and erect moss should be okay with higher KH, but I would be worried about the Eriocaulon (although I did okay with cinereum) and especially Tonina species, which have a reputation of preferring low KH and low pH. Tonina fluviatilis could probably do fine with a KH of 5, but I've heard people say that their 'Belem' would do very poorly in pH over 6.5.

I don't know what to tell you at this point... For this sort of reason, I moved my shrimp into a 5.5-gallon tank that receives no fertilizer and no CO2 injection. It's just stuffed with lots of moss and random clippings tossed in there from other tanks (just left floating, mostly).

I would hate to think that my suggestions made your situation worse by damaging your plants and further harming your shrimp... If you choose to proceed with the baking soda, do so very slowly (maybe even cut the doses in half and do the addition in four parts) and observe very closely. I hope your situation improves. Good luck!

-Naomi

janazr
16th Apr 2005, 01:52 PM
Shrimps died due to CO2 poisoning or low PH below 6.0




Hi guys, I'm suddenly having this prob with my 3ft shrimp tank, shrimps have been found dead over the past 3 days (abt 3-5 each day)... I really don't know what's going on as I didn't do any major rescape (only a minor trimming of stem plants last week) and alternate days of topping up water due to evaporation....

I don't even feed everyday, feeding them a mixture of Azoo 9in1 Discus pellet(red) and Sera Discus "Blue" color food on alternate days... Anyway the following is my tank perimeters I just took, seems kinda bad to me thou:

NH3: 0-0.25
PH: 6
No2: 0
KH: 2-3dkh
Lights: 4x36W PLL 10hrs
Co2: 3-4 bps
Temp: 22-26 deg cel

Guys I need your expertise and advice