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ianiwane
11th Jun 2006, 02:53 PM
I am having some actual mineral rock sent to me from Japan. How many rocks do I need for a 10 gallon tank and how long will they last. I am also getting some mineral rock powder. If I only use the powder what is the dosing info for this tank. Thanks in advance

retardo
12th Jun 2006, 02:01 AM
This is the first I've heard of this mineral rock? Do you know what its chemical makeup is? What is its purpose? Does it promote growth and/or reproduction or is it strictly for buffering?

silane
12th Jun 2006, 08:18 PM
A good guide is 100g per 2ft tank, 60l of water, induce them into your tank with a few parts over a few days. Mineral rock does wear out after some time, so you have to replace them from time to time. Personally, I prefer the powder form, using it on a tank mixing it with water or as a think layer during setup under the gravel.

It is used to buffer the water to necessary minerals to bring out the color of CRS.

Spid
12th Jun 2006, 11:35 PM
Hi Silane,

May I know how much does a 100g cube of mineral cost?

Will it be able to last long in water?

Thanks.

Jon

ianiwane
13th Jun 2006, 12:07 AM
400g of mineral rock was about 1500 yen or 14 US plus shipping.

ianiwane
13th Jun 2006, 09:30 AM
This is what I got from japan.

Spid
13th Jun 2006, 11:10 PM
Thanks for the info pal.

Berkley
14th Jun 2006, 04:51 AM
Hello,
I've never heard something about it...
Could somebody explain what it does? Does it really make the colour of Crs better?
Kind regards
Timo

ianiwane
14th Jun 2006, 05:05 AM
It makes the whites come out. It puts minerals into the water that the crystals need to produce the white color in the shells.

Berkley
14th Jun 2006, 09:58 PM
Ah! But could I get the minerals in other things? Without buying it in Japan.
I hope you know, what I mean!
Kind regards
Timo

turbomkt
20th Jun 2006, 11:44 PM
In addition to adding minerals that add color, it also absorbs impurities. I was told the mineral in question is more commonly known as montmorillonite or bentonite. I can get it for $10 or so per pound in southern California.

If anyone is interested in a group purchase, let me know. The supplier says he only has a few hundred pounds left ;)

retardo
21st Jun 2006, 01:27 AM
In addition to adding minerals that add color, it also absorbs impurities. I was told the mineral in question is more commonly known as montmorillonite or bentonite.

How do these minerals break down and is there such a thing as an overdose (that is, can the concentrations reach toxic levels)?

turbomkt
21st Jun 2006, 01:43 PM
Not that I know of. The one lfs I visited in Yokosuka had about the same amount regardless of tank size. And the rocks don't really dissolve all that fast. They are actually used heavily for the absorption properties (Soilmaster and Turface are the same stuff but baked hard).

ianiwane
22nd Jun 2006, 05:22 AM
The mineral rock is supposed to strengthen the white. It will not turn a low grade crystal to a high grade crystal though. Not even close. I am not sure if it is montmorillonite, I have no way of testing the actual mineral rock that I have.

turbomkt
22nd Jun 2006, 10:51 AM
Maybe add color is the wrong wording. How about "enhance existing color"?

I'm going by what I saw in use in the lfs in Yokosuka and what has been explained by someone familiar with the rocks who speaks english. Worst case...I just found out I'm back in Japan for three weeks in September. I'll pick some up while I'm there and compare it to my local source ;)

spinex
22nd Jun 2006, 02:01 PM
I have read in some HK forum (in chinese) that these minerals rocks are the same as what koi hobbyist used. Local HK people also buy those mineral rocks for their crs.

Koi hobbyist use the mineral rock to enchance color and especially the white.

silane
22nd Jun 2006, 09:47 PM
Exactly, the mineral rock and in fact any more of color enhancer, enhance or strengthen the color a litte, there is no such product which changes the grade.

Mineral rock works to provide the water with necessary mineral to enhance the white.

There is other form of food supplement that is used to enhance the white and red.

retardo
23rd Jun 2006, 12:17 AM
Silane,

Do you know what the mineral is? Also, what are the food alternatives?

Thanks.

Jenova
23rd Jun 2006, 10:53 AM
Personally, I think grading is more on the genes of the parents. Selective breeding through generations to enhance or refine the grades.

Food supplements, mineral rocks, etc are more to enhance the existing color and not the grade.

silane
23rd Jun 2006, 06:50 PM
retardo,

I believe it is Ca and Mg that do the trick.

Adensis
23rd Jun 2006, 10:30 PM
Is it possible to harm shrimps by overdosing mineral rock, Ca or Mg?

ianiwane
24th Jun 2006, 01:31 AM
Well, if you think about it, it depends on how you are dosing Ca or Mg. I have a feeling mineral rock is a very slow buffer of Ca and Mg. If you were to add too much CaCl or epsom salt for Mg you may have a problem because they are both very soluble. You will raise your kH and gH too much and may cause problems.

kitkat
27th Jun 2006, 12:54 PM
If mineral rock will affact the kH and gH, what is typically the acceptable range of kH and gH in a CRS tank?

ianiwane
27th Jun 2006, 01:07 PM
I do not think mineral rock raises it because it does not disolve well in water.

turbomkt
27th Jun 2006, 01:21 PM
Montmorillonite is a clay based rock or powder known more for its absorptive properties. Soilmaster and Turface are basically the same thing but baked/hardened first. Some types of kitty litter are the same stuff.

barbatus
29th Nov 2006, 06:21 AM
I'm a chemical engineer and If the stuff used is bentonite or related- you can buy it at any home brew shop in small quatities. Its primary use is as a floculant- its used in the water industry to settle out impurities- I'm not sure if it is readily available biologicaly (I work in a biotech) but I susppect that it removes soluble pigments form your tnak water and thus "cleans" out the shell formation to provide the "enhanced" white color. ALSO- I might add that if you use it as a floculant you reduce the ammount of particles and absorbtion of light in the water- hence giving a "brighter" white reflection from the shell surface- hope that makes sense..

Either way I ordered some from Hong Kong(ebay) - I'm in San Francisco and will test it and try to report its composition if possible.

Has anyone fed their shrimp chard? it contains alot of caratenoids used in pigmentation? Just a thought.

Jose
29th Nov 2006, 03:04 PM
Ianiwane

Where did you order your mineral rocks if I may ask??

Jose

Jose
29th Nov 2006, 03:23 PM
if I google on Montmorillonite or bentonite on dutch sites, this is what they say about it...

It's perfect to get your pond watertight.. :undecided

So... if it's the same as wat Ianawane orderd....??

Could it be Zeolite? That's a vulcanic rock...

Jose

Jenova
29th Nov 2006, 05:50 PM
If mineral rock will affact the kH and gH, what is typically the acceptable range of kH and gH in a crystal red shrimp tank?

I read some where like not exceeding 6, my tank are constantly at 0 Kh/Gh even after weekly dosage. I doubt the mineral rock will raise it significantly.

Adensis
29th Nov 2006, 07:58 PM
I just bought a pack of Zeolith, in germany it seems to be availably in every pet shop (1 kilo at 7) to use it in freshwater and saltwater tanks.

The package says:

- environmental toxins get absorbed
- lowers the phosphate content
- stores excess nutrients and decaying products in microscopic pores
- promotes rapid formation of a bacterial culture, which quickly depletes organic contaminants
- regulates the biological equilibrium, clarifies and detixifies the water
- 1 kilo works for 3 months in a 500 liter tank
- for seawater and freshwater

lyh
30th Nov 2006, 12:52 AM
I just bought a pack of Zeolith, in germany it seems to be availably in every pet shop (1 kilo at 7) to use it in freshwater and saltwater tanks.

The package says:

- environmental toxins get absorbed
- lowers the phosphate content
- stores excess nutrients and decaying products in microscopic pores
- promotes rapid formation of a bacterial culture, which quickly depletes organic contaminants
- regulates the biological equilibrium, clarifies and detixifies the water
- 1 kilo works for 3 months in a 500 liter tank
- for seawater and freshwater

Beware that it might just release all the toxins which it absorbed back into the water when it gets saturated just like activated charcoal. It might be a timebomb :bomb:

Adensis
30th Nov 2006, 01:07 AM
Hmm i dont think so, the toxins are absorbed in those microscopic pores because of electrostatic attraction, and i read, when the pores are "filled" after approx 3 months, you can take the zeolith off the tank and renew it in salt water. If you just leave it in the tank, it won't affect water parameters any longer.

Frank
30th Nov 2006, 02:31 AM
Got some Montmorillonite today.
Its a fine powder, normally used for ponds.
Can somebody tell me how often I should add this?
Is it OK every week a few grams?
(Dosing in pond: 100 grams for 10000 liters)

Zeolith is not the same but should be usefull IMO.
I will get some soon.

silane
30th Nov 2006, 10:17 AM
A warning, I have heard 2 aweful stories of people get their CRS tank screwed for using Zeolite but on the other hand, some people uses it without an issue. It could due to the varies properties of zeolite that is haversted at different geographical location. So use them with care.

newb4ev3r
30th Nov 2006, 01:16 PM
New / fresh zeolite will not harm any fish, shrimp. It's widely use in the aquaculture industry. They have a chemical analysis +/- like this:

I. Physical Properties
Chemical formula: M2/nO.Al2O3.x(SiO2).yH2O
Crystalline form: Modernite, Clinoptil-olite, Montmorillonite, Quarts
Appearance: Granules, round pellet, powder
Color: Light green - green to gray
Melting point: 1368C
pH: 8.0 - 10.0
Specific gravity: 2.37
Porous volume: 28 - 34 %
Porous diameter: 2.9 - 7.0 0A
Loss on Ignition: 8.60 - 13.44 %
Moisture content: < 12.0 %
NH3 Absorption: 44.68 %

II. Chemical Analysis
CEC: > 120 meq/100gr
SiO2: > 65%
Fe2O3: 1.16 %
Al2O3: 12.88 %
MgO: 0.44 %
CaO: 1.71 %
MnO2: 0.01 %
Cr2O3: < 0.01 %
Na2O: 1.13 %
K2O: 0.88 %
TiO2: 0.19 %

But beware when you add some salt into the tank. Like Adensis said, zeolite can be renew / backwash using a salt water. In that case , zeolite is act as an ion exchange resin, it will release the ammonia inside its pores and bind the salt, because there's a higher concentration of salt in the water than the ammonia concentration (usually ammonia = 0 in the fresh water + salt).

That's also the reason why people got an awful experience using a zeolite. Either they use a used zeolite and than add a salt into the tank or they have a saturated zeolite inside the tank and than add salt into the tank. It will cause an ammonia spike (because the zeolite will release the ammonia to bind the salt). If the bio filter cannot handle it the result is the dead of the shrimp / fish in the tank that highly sensitive to ammonia present. But it will not release ammonia that binded in its pores without any trigger. If you use a small quantity of zeolite or salt, basically it's safe because mature bio filter usually can handle a little ammonia spike.

So be careful with salt if you are using zeolite. Do not add any high concentration salt water near the zeolite.

Btw, zeolite won't be effective in the seawater tanks, it will bind salt mostly.

If you use only a small quantity of zeolite, just buy another batch of new zeolite to change the saturated one. Backwash can only regain it absorption capability as good as 70%. People told me that backwash can only done as much as 5 times (I personally doubt it), and than you have to change it. Backwash is usually only done by a big aquaculture industry which use a lot (hundred of tons) of zeolite. It can safe some cost. But for small application like aquarium, just replace it with a new batch of zeolite for safe.

Zeolite basically is not required if you have a mature bio filter. It's good to prevent ammonia spike in the earlier stage of the tank's cycle. Or in the big prawn pond without any kind of filter, zeolite also used widely.

One more thing, if you go out to buy a zeolite, buy one with a highest CEC value. CEC = cation exchange capacity. So zeolite with higher CEC can bind ammonia better.

If you want to add some calcium into the water, just use CaCO3 rock (calcium carbonate).

lyh
30th Nov 2006, 11:12 PM
Basically what happens is that when you use zeolite, it absorbs the ammonia thus the amount of BB established in the tank is very low. When you decided not to use the zeolite, there will be a sudden surge in ammonia as there are insufficient BB to handle it which is dangerous.

newb4ev3r
1st Dec 2006, 12:12 PM
Basically, if you know how to place it properly, this won't happen. The best place to place the zeolite is in the filter after the bio-filter media. So let's say you use bioball in the canister filter, place the zeolite in the chamber after the bioball chamber. Or if you use sponge filter, place the zeolite inside the tube where's the sponge rest. In this way, the zeolite will only adsorp the ammonia that the bio-filter unable to handle yet. When the filter become mature and can handle the bioload effectively, basically zeolite won't be needed anymore.

Ps. The smaller the size of the zeolite rock, the better it will adsorp the ammonia

Jose
2nd Dec 2006, 03:53 PM
Now whe are talking about Zeolite..

But we still don't know the name of the rock Ianiwane orderd.. Does some one know wich rock Ianiwane orderd??

Or.. Iawiane... Do you allready know what the name of the rock is you get/got from japan?

greetz.. jose

silane
2nd Dec 2006, 07:05 PM
There are 2 types of mineral rock around, one is normal effect and the other is fast effect. The one on the left is normal effect. Normal effect tends to stay as a piece in water, fast effect will disintegrate in water.

Jose
3rd Dec 2006, 02:22 AM
There are 2 types of mineral rock

and the name is?

silane
3rd Dec 2006, 09:16 AM
Japaneses call them 古代海泥

Jose
3rd Dec 2006, 03:26 PM
mmmm to bad.. still not saying what it is..

In ancient time oozed.. or... ancient (see) mud.... that's the translation of it...

Could be vulcanic rock or something..

Is there some member here from Japan? Who can help us?

greets Jose

silane
3rd Dec 2006, 04:48 PM
It's means ancient sea mud. Not volcano rock, it is a layer formed by prehistoric sea shell and such. It can be made into a facial mask and good for your skin too. :)

Adensis
4th Dec 2006, 12:42 AM
Doesn't it raise the tanks Ph?

barbatus
4th Dec 2006, 12:52 AM
I got my stuff from Ebay, - a home brew shop is a place where you can buy ingredients to make home made wine and beer.. they are common here (SF)

barbatus
4th Dec 2006, 12:56 AM
Yes... in large quantities... this is a complex mineral folks and remember not extrodinarily soluble.. its a clay form material from two sources.. volcanic and biologic (sea bed) SILANE- your right.. I have also seen this material used in health spas--- unfortunately they add fragarances most of the time !

Anothe rthing.. its not a time bomb like carbon.. once stuff goes into this puppy... it just wont come out.. thats why its used in water treatment for drinking water... and wine..it stabilizes solutions.

hope that helps!

Jose
4th Dec 2006, 04:51 AM
all nice story's.. but does anyone here know what the english name is of the mineral rock?? Or is that a secret.. Or am I the only one who doesn't know how it's called...

Sorry I ask so much.. but no answer till now.. :undecided :undecided

Jose:joking:

silane
4th Dec 2006, 12:18 PM
all nice story's.. but does anyone here know what the english name is of the mineral rock?? Or is that a secret.. Or am I the only one who doesn't know how it's called...

Sorry I ask so much.. but no answer till now.. :undecided :undecided

Jose:joking:


Didn't I have translated for you? :whip: Read post #11, someone has suggested another type of rock.

silane
4th Dec 2006, 12:23 PM
Yes... in large quantities... this is a complex mineral folks and remember not extrodinarily soluble.. its a clay form material from two sources.. volcanic and biologic (sea bed) SILANE- your right.. I have also seen this material used in health spas--- unfortunately they add fragarances most of the time !

Anothe rthing.. its not a time bomb like carbon.. once stuff goes into this puppy... it just wont come out.. thats why its used in water treatment for drinking water... and wine..it stabilizes solutions.

hope that helps!

Yes, they are not soluble at all, some of the rock will break into chips and chips into powder, they still wont desolve, they are clay afterall. They will sink to the bottom of the tank bury among gravel after sometime.

Another stone you can use is mafan stone, this is really stone, not going to break down into chip and a great host to benefitial bacteria. Jose, I know you will ask me for the English name, I try to find later. :)

Jose
4th Dec 2006, 10:30 PM
Didn't I have translated for you?

I think I must clean my glasses.. :p :cool:

Jose

silane
9th Dec 2006, 06:23 PM
This is mafan (wheat rice) stone, it is used as CRS tank filteration medium. It releases mineral. The extract of such stone is also available in liquid form.

acesk
9th Dec 2006, 11:08 PM
ehh. Just got curious. Minerial water in those supermarket is it beneficial?? Any one tried before? LOL. I maybe trying out..maybe...

Frank
12th Dec 2006, 07:01 AM
I have used Montmorillonite some times in all my tanks.
Cannot say if good, shrimps are not dead. :p

Zeolite is in 2 tanks since a few days.
That could be the reason that my white crystal shrimps have more visible stripes and dots. Also the saddle or eggs are more blue/green than white.
They seem to be in better condition with Zeolite. I use Amtra.

mrnico
28th Dec 2006, 06:29 AM
In addition to adding minerals that add color, it also absorbs impurities. I was told the mineral in question is more commonly known as montmorillonite or bentonite. I can get it for $10 or so per pound in southern California.

If anyone is interested in a group purchase, let me know. The supplier says he only has a few hundred pounds left ;)
Montmorillonite is a blue clay. Bentonite is a tan clay often used for well or hole drilling. It is called drilling mud in directional boring. If that is it, it should be very easy to find. But it will dissolve readily in water to make a cloudy tan mud. So it must be something else...

Shrimper06
28th Dec 2006, 08:01 AM
I have used Montmorillonite some times in all my tanks.
Cannot say if good, shrimps are not dead.

I guess this is always a good sign, not dead.

HomegrowncichlidNYC
28th Dec 2006, 09:24 AM
bentonite clay is also what they use in that pink pepto bismol you take when you get food poisoning. Clay has lots of surface area and holds an electric charge which attracts oppositely charged particles. Makes sense that it works in cleaning up the water as long as you can get it in a rock versus powder form.

defi
19th Jan 2007, 10:38 PM
Montrollite is a fancy name of bentonite clay. Bentonite clay content almost 90 % of montrollite. In my country they used it in koi farm and tiger prawn for commercial. One of the japanese crs breeder claim that even u put haif tank full with bentonite clay without any filter and o2, crs will not dead. He already prove it, it work!!!!

drakkar
12th Feb 2007, 06:55 AM
Hi, for me French, you think that one little to find these clays in France? Or i need use Zeolite?

Frank
12th Feb 2007, 07:03 AM
Hi, for me French, you think that one little to find these clays in France? Or i need use Zeolite?

The name Montmorillonite is from the city Montmorillon in south france.
So you will find it there. :D

drakkar
12th Feb 2007, 08:00 AM
:embarasse I now juste south france for wine.:joking:
thank you Frank.:thumbsup:

splatt3
12th Feb 2007, 08:01 AM
very interesting minerals.... can someone tell us more about this mineral after a few months of testing? does it actually work and how long? are there anything we should worry about? thanks.

Frank
12th Feb 2007, 08:06 AM
:embarasse I now juste south france for wine.:joking:
thank you Frank.:thumbsup:

Just look for someone who is selling koi products!

drakkar
12th Feb 2007, 08:12 AM
And it is same clay as that of Japan?

Jose
12th Feb 2007, 04:18 PM
Bentonite is easy to get if you know a store where you can buy stuff to make your own wine..

That's how I bought it.. It's in little round pallets and it falls apart when you put it in water..

My CR are crazy about it. And what did I notice... Less ded shrimplets when their skin peels off.. and just a little bit more and brighter white with my shrimplets. But with my group of shrimps thats easy, because allmost all the white dissapeared.. :undecided

Jose

MyShrimps
13th Feb 2007, 03:08 AM
Hello Jose,

if the white disappears then the water condition might not fit to the crs.
Maybe it's too hard, too alcaline, it contains too much Amonium or NO2/NO3 or simply the temperature is too low or too high.
At least my crs react in this way. In summer when it was very hot they lost much of their white which later luckily returned when the temperature was ok again.

Peter

Jose
13th Feb 2007, 03:11 AM
What would be the right temperature for CR's then? Now it's aroun 25 degr.C.

And what are the best waterconditions for CR??

Jose

Jose
13th Feb 2007, 03:57 PM
I did a test. GH >21.. thats not good.. but it's since I give my CR Bentonite...

Before it was between 4 and 5... and no NO2/3, Ph 7,5, KH 3 and still very little white or even no white at all..
Now I give them Bentonite and the white is coming back amongst te shrimplets...

What effect does the rocks have on your water??

MyShrimps
14th Feb 2007, 04:22 AM
Hi Jose,

25 degr.C. is OK, but I wouldn't make it hotter.
My shrimps got problems above 27 degr.C.

I think GH >21 is too hard for crs and you should try to lower the ph, too.
Maybe the high GH is caused by the bentonite. There are different kind of bentonite and perhaps yours rises the GH.

GH >21 and KH 3 is a bit strange. I don't know why there is such a big difference. Hope someone else can explain the reason.

Peter

i_Snail
15th Feb 2007, 10:40 PM
Bentonite is easy to get if you know a store where you can buy stuff to make your own wine..

That's how I bought it.. It's in little round pallets and it falls apart when you put it in water..

My CR are crazy about it. And what did I notice... Less ded shrimplets when their skin peels off.. and just a little bit more and brighter white with my shrimplets. But with my group of shrimps thats easy, because allmost all the white dissapeared.. :undecided

Jose

Hello Jose

May I ask how you use the bentonite pellets? Do you just drop them in the water and for how long do they last?? Thanks.

leen
18th Feb 2007, 03:06 AM
I did a test. GH >21.. thats not good.. but it's since I give my CR Bentonite...

Before it was between 4 and 5... and no NO2/3, Ph 7,5, KH 3 and still very little white or even no white at all..
Now I give them Bentonite and the white is coming back amongst te shrimplets...

What effect does the rocks have on your water??

Hello Jose,

PH is no good. Above 7,5 is deadly for bee-shrimps and CR's.:cry:
GH >21 is too much either. In my tank is it >10 en they are very white in that tank.
In the other tank i've some CR's too and my GH there is >5 and the CR's are less whiter.

Lower your GH and PH and you'll see a difference;)